ICC-destroying guilds/mass server transfers?

[slevnkalevra]

It has become readily apparent to me just by going through forums and talking to people on different servers that it is hard to keep a 25 man guild together currently. Raiders are consistently transferring or people are becoming fed up with leadership and guild disbands. I have seen flux in populations of servers in a matter of two weeks going from high to low and vise versa. It has become ridiculous. People are server hopping like no other all wanting to get to the Lich King faster.

There is a mentality that "if a guild doesn't progress a boss forward every week then I should transfer to one that can". Where did this come from?

It just seems odd to me that now during the final raid dungeon guilds that have lasted through all of WOTLK are dissipating into nothing.

Apparently people were expecting ICC to be roflstomp easy like TOC?
Or is being in a top 500 guild really that big of a deal?
Or is wiping/putting in 20+ attempts on a boss unacceptable?
Or people just can't stick together without causing political drama that ultimately ends in seperation?

I just don't understand. ICC isn't that hard it certainly isn't even close to as difficult as any pre wotlk raids

Maybe I am just seeing things/ seeing a biased perspective from servers that are having these problems, but I feel like this is occurring more and more frequently.

[slevnkalevra]

Also realized this is in the wrong forum i want to be in WOTLK perhaps an admin can tranfer it


P.S. Sozz

[Leios the Worstcase]

Problem ist hat ICC has 14? Bosses and clear all of them withing 1 Raid Lockout is something not all guilds can acomplish. Most Raiders (true) Raiders don’t mind Wipeing 20 times as long as they advance and the Boss goes down First Try next time and because of Limited Atempts You can’t realy extend IDs since it would be a waste.

I can understand some people wanting to go to a better Guild if their „We can’t clear 14 Bosses but we all like eachother“ dosen’t give them any chance of seeing the Lich King anytime soon.

[BellaAutumn]

I'm sure after people sit in ICC for 12 hours consistently wiping to make it to the Lich King that yeah out of frustration people are going to quit and even disband because of the stress. I remember when Yogg was the destroyer of guilds.

[SilverLynx]

Yes, this does happen.

It happened to my homeserver in both Vanilla and TBC and most of our hardcore raiders from that period in time are not on the server anymore. And we have had little progress, and due to lacking a top 100 guild (hordeside, don't know about alliance) we get no hardcore transfers onto the server.

This leaves us with a void where the 'best' guilds disband over and over and over again, more people who might have the wherewithall to take down the Lich King leave server and we have even FEWER people doing 25 man content.

Thus we are a server with many 10 man guilds.

What's funny is my guild is massively casual, but we actually contain a core group of some of the hardcore people left over from Vanilla. We have no issue wiping (even wiping on content that other guilds may or may not be getting down, and even wiping for an entire night), even though many of the fights are a gear check (Festergut, for example generally gets killed about 10 seconds before enrage due to our lack of DPS, due to bad drops EVERY FREAKING WEEK) - but we know better than to try and recruit from the pool of "the grass is greener" baddies that cover the server.

We've had a few people jump ship who were recruited in the past, and they change guilds every 2 weeks. They're not really progressing, they're just hoping that they can find a guild that 'doesn't suck' - which is laughable, we all suck.

The only way our server could turn itself around would be for a hardcore team to transfer to our server with the express desire to steal our Kingslayer/othertitlethatIcan'trecall once their 3 months is up (probably what's going to happen, many of our major titles were stolen that way) - have their presence there be so widely known that we get massive transfers to join their 'awesome' team who get rejected and make their own "well if they don't like us, we'll just do it ourselves" who actually make a few good guilds that actually get through the content, and draw out all the people who don't suck from all the ten man guilds on server...and THEN we might we a proper LK kill before his soon-to-be massive nerfs.

But that's not going to happen, because no one gives a CRAP about Runetotem US.

[Elementium]

WotLK killed my last guild. We had people quitting left and right. I'm kinda thinking blizz should make a guild merge feature because many guilds have been hit hard by WotLK.

[DAST]

Honestly i think ToC spoiled alot of people. eh whatever

[Waterisbest]

Honestly i think ToC spoiled alot of people. eh whatever

This.

At start of wotlk, naxx was the reason why ppl started to quit. But ulduar got control over the situation. I saw alot of decent/good players return to complete ulduar. Few bosses in ulduar25 could be pugged, but the rest was not doable with pugs. HMs were guilds only.

In came TotC and wotlk went downhill. It gave everyone easy epics. Everyone pugged it. Some people thought it's not worth it. Don't get me wrong, it has couple of tough fights, but that's about it. Totc 10/25 normal put the thoughts of normal modes being completely faceroll and pugable. Heroic was difficult.

ICC gets released, people enter it thinking it's going to be the same free loot system like totc. First 4 bosses get pugged and now everyone is sure that the rest of the bosses will be the same. More wings release and they are not only pug killers (some pugs clear a few more bosses but that hardly happens, even on my server which is ranked number 2 in EU) but also giving a hard time to many guilds.

Then on the forums people come and read so many people whining about the difficulty of the encounters on normal modes without even taking in account that hard modes are not released which are the true encounters for better gamers. Everyone starts thinking every boss is faceroll and if a guild is not able to kill a boss in the 1st couple of tries or a week, then they are "scrub" guild. They start to look for better guilds that have cleared all the encounters (which are few).

When these people don't find a better guild on their own server, they change server and keep changing until they find the suitable guild (meaning guilds that clear everything on release). Many players just move to servers with a few high end raiding guilds, leading to a heavy rise in population on that server while leaving the others completely low.

Blizz has now opened free migrations to reduce lags on most servers but it hardly helps. Why? Because if one high end guild moves to a new server, lots of people (even guilds) follow them, resulting in high population on the new server and leaving the old server empty.

These are some of the reasons why people don't stay in 1 guild over along period of time and just guild hop gearing their characters (yes some people keep joining different guilds on different characters to gear them all, dunno what people exactly get from it). I knew a guy who kept changing from ally to horde and vise versa joining a new guild every time and a guy who kept changing his main to gear all his characters in the same guild leading to the disbanding of the guild because people didn't like that. Also a guy who change about 6-7 in the past 3-4 months.

People keep doing this because there are no consequences. The cata guild system will help with this but not entirely. Blizz needs to put a penalty on people (other then money because everyone is very rich) transferring from decent servers to high populated servers. And on people changing from an avg populated faction to high populated faction. These penalties should not be used on very low populated servers/factions.

Also what keke said. ICC25 is meant to be cleared by every decent guild. While ICC25hc is for the best guilds, just like Ulduar was. It might take some guilds a little more time then others to clear some bosses whit people nowadays don't really care, they want fast progress and loot.

Guild disbands happened in tbc alot aswell. Alot of decent guilds on my server (same server but in tbc we had very low population) disbanded due to lack of players, or good players moving on. It is the fate of low population servers, they create good players and the players move on, leaving the server "starved". This is not only a problem in wotlk but has happened thought out wow and will keep on happening untill blizz does something.

People need to realize that not everything is "faceroll" and not everyone is the best. ICC is not destroying all the guilds, it is destroying some ofc since it's the last raid of the expansion and alot of people want to clear it, also looking at the fact that many many many many people didn't kill the last boss of the expac in vanilla and tbc. But some of these problems are bought to us by blizz not being careful about the transfers because they are getting easy money from it but also by us, the wow community as a whole, when we start to put ideas into others mind when we make posts like "icc the easiest endgame raid" or "everyone should get all epics because we all pay the same amount" or "iz farmz batteredz hiltz butz iz dontz getz itz" (examples ofc, not directing to everyone or any thread).

Have a lot more to say but I'll stop now or otherwise people will start hating (if they already don't). Good day and keep in mind not everything is for everyone.

[Offhand]

Honestly i think ToC spoiled alot of people. eh whatever

ToC (and Naxx for that matter) were huge issues for progression guilds. Not having enough stuff to do to warrant logging on for much more then raid night quickly translates into not bothering to log on at all really quickly for some people.

[pomop]

People want easy mode. I remember vack in MC, we wiped constantly. Now we wipe 2 times and somebody threatens to Gquit.

It also has to do with all the damn 10 man guilds out there. STOP MAKING MORE GUILDS. THERE ARE 5789 other guilds that cant even do 10 man content and you are wanting to make another one?! FFS.

[Sarcasm]

1) WotLK is designed to be more casual friendly, allowing people who cannot play as much as others to still experience content.
2) ToC fed the "wiping is bad, epics are easy, raiding is easy" mentality.
3) Casuals (not meant in a bad way) from point 1) were spoilt by ToC and are expecting ICC to be along the same lines, which leads to the mentality of
4) Any guild which cannot one-shot each boss from the current tier and provide the casual raider with shiny gear each week is a bad guild.

My guild has been together since early TBC with a lot of original members still there, so they understand what progression really means in a difficult environment. The guild motto is still unofficially "if you're not dying, you're not trying". We're currently 10/12 and will hopefully have Sindragosa down tomorrow. Patience and effort pays off, guild hopping for purplzes doesn't.

[Endler89]

This is how its always been nothing new with icc. Honestly my guilds core group has been together for at least 3 years might be 4. We saw so many come and go in kara days when we were getting ready for 25 mans that it was frustrating to see all the fluxuation, but its just an issue thats been going on for a while now.

Blizzard has a nice fix for this in cata with all the new guild features only thing is i think i need to make a new thread on the official boards cause your post gave me an idea. Basically the idea i came up with is give a 2 week debuff upon leaving a guild that you can't benefit from a guilds bonuses. Its not unreasonably long and makes jumping to a higher progressed guild mean you have to put work in with said guild before you can immediately gain the guild buffs. Basically guild hoppers wouldn't get all the new guild based enchants/items immediately they'd have to wait so guild hopping would be more of a decision then oooh look they can clear icc and were stil progressing in it. /jump on the free loot bus

[Bunsie]

We see it on our server all the time, our top guild just transferred off because of some inside dispute. While we're still getting newer players to the game, keeping the balance, we're losing experienced raiders and gaining more and more meh guilds who expect everything to be easy and handed to them. I think Blizzard is a very smart company, but I'm not sure I like the road they're going down. Yes, it's nice to devote more time to my marriage and family then to raiding and still get some sweet purples, but when it comes down to it, not much work went into getting them. So with the new patches making the game easier, the new players are used to gaining things with minimal effort, while those who've been playing for a while sit around going "Wtf?"

C'est la vie I suppose.

[Whitcher]

My guild hasn't even downed Rotface or Festergut yet, let alone Council. I play alliance and have had a couple offers from a horde guild on a server I used to play on back in vanilla to come raid with them. I'd do it in a heartbeat if I could afford to spend that much money on a transfer.

[Lotharion]

My guild has been together since early TBC with a lot of original members still there, so they understand what progression really means in a difficult environment. The guild motto is still unofficially "if you're not dying, you're not trying". We're currently 10/12 and will hopefully have Sindragosa down tomorrow. Patience and effort pays off, guild hopping for purplzes doesn't.

Oh how I wish I could find a guild like this.

[arel00]

The first time I went into ICC10, it was with a "pug" made of trusted friends, who know each other but are not used to play together. When we went to Saurfang and wiped, one of my friend suddenly said over Ventrilo:

"God... we're wiping for real. Finally! THANK YOU Blizzard!"

So much truth in those words.

[Whitcher]

Oh how I wish I could find a guild like this.

I had a guild like that at one point. Joined them in vanilla and progressed through MC all the way to Naxx with them. Took a couple month hiatus in BC shortly after kara release for some RL stuff then came back for SSC and TK then left again. Came back for a bit in BT then had to leave again. They ended up getting about halfway through sunwell and the guild had a falling out. Now I'm stuck in a guild where we have a f'kin boomkin with all 245+ doing 3-3.5k dps and deathbringer's will was given to a hunter that shows up once every couple weeks just because his epgp was the highest. F'kin hate this game sometimes.

[Capt_jesus]

I agree, ToC spoiled way to many players. They all got their triumph 4/5 sets and think they can pull mad dps and belong in top guilds because they can push 4 buttons.

My guild is stuck at LK 10man this week (used up all our attempts, yeah yeah, we suck)

But on 25man we can;t even down Prof. Why? Becuase we need more recruits. We have about 20ish committed raiders, obvoiusly we need more for 25mans. The problem is that Bonechewer - US is a funny server. You're either in one of the top raiding guilds on the server or in a totally shit guild that cant get past Marrowgar 25m. (Yeah we got a few inbetween). Everytime we recruit someone they almost always end up being some asshole who demands to be carried and then gquit or "mysteriously d/cs" after our 2nd wipe on Rotface 25m. It's really annoying to not be able to progress into 25man content because some people reufse to learn the game.

[Grimbold]

Some of you are saying that ToC spoiled the players. Tbh all of Wotlk has been about easy raids(normal mode) and allowing all kind of players to get gear easily.

True that in TBC guilds disbanded aswell, but as we all know gear wasnt as easy to get as it is now. Back then you'd either stick with ur guild and work for the best or you'd move on to one above the lvl of your old one. Guildless wasnt exactly an option cause then gear wasnt so easy to get (omg im repeating myself!)

[sscavenger]

My guild is a casual raiding guild, we have enough for ten man. So we had our group one of raiders, suppose to be a group two but things didn't work out. Now most of group one bailed because they wanted to go hard core raiding. If you weren't willing to be the class they wanted you didn't get to raid. Oh you're a priest? You are our healer, oh whats this? You say you are a shadow priest? Well sorry spot was filled. At least they didn't raid the guild bank when they left.