Flame Shock dps

[pomop]

Kid comment. Guess that never gets old in WoW.

Ya, I actually want to switch to Glyph of Lightining Bolt after leaning how it scales better on single targets today. I actually assume that I'll get a nice little dps boost now that I know that. And I'm aslo not trying to teacher anyone anything. Everyone pay's there 15 bucks a month and can do w/e they want.

As my sig on the wow forums says "I know your $14.99 entitles you to play the game your way, but the rest of the raid's $359.76 says know your role."

not saying you dont know your role, i just like my sig a lot and link it all the time when somebody fails in a group / raid.

[Zyster]

I have done some testing with this via the simulator. Switching out all my haste gems for attack power gems (but keeping sensible set bonuses) gives me a straight up 200 dps loss, with the 4 piece bonus taken into account.

What about AP/Haste and thanks for the info because I've been wondering about maybe start switching out some AP gems for Haste.

[Zyster]

As my sig on the wow forums says "I know your $14.99 entitles you to play the game your way, but the rest of the raid's $359.76 says know your role."

not saying you dont know your role, i just like my sig a lot and link it all the time when somebody fails in a group / raid.

I like it too.

[fakestreet]

according to that parse, earth shock every CD would have been more dps than rotating in flame shock

either that or i'm reading it wrong. any explanation for that? it kinda bothers me

i was under the impression that FS was SLIGHTLY ahead but haven't played my shaman much lately.

FS ticks 6x per application. His average tick was 514. Multiply by 6 = 3084.

Add to the average initial hit = 4490
Add to the average initial crit = 5655

Compare this to ES

Average hit = 3071
Average crit = 6569

Assuming the same crit rate of 50% (correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think they should have different paperdoll crit rate):
FS = 0.5*4490 + 5655*0.5 = 5072 average damage
ES = 0.5*3071 + 6569*0.5 = 4819 average damage

So FS is better.

[Zyster]

FS ticks 6x per application. His average tick was 514. Multiply by 6 = 3084.

Add to the average initial hit = 4490
Add to the average initial crit = 5655

Compare this to ES

Average hit = 3071
Average crit = 6569

Assuming the same crit rate of 50% (correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think they should have different paperdoll crit rate):
FS = 0.5*4490 + 5655*0.5 = 5072 average damage
ES = 0.5*3071 + 6569*0.5 = 4819 average damage

So FS is better.

I don't think this is accurate info to Base what is better considering what. That was a 4 min+ fight for you guys if I'm reading this right and he only had 17 shocks total? Again, IDK if i'm reading that right but only 17 shocks?

Or how does it work? Are the hit's and crit's seperate or? IDK!

Nvm, I got it now, ya, In his/her case FS > ES, But with just 1k sp more (which I got) I'm sure that the ES > FS, specially since with the 2k dmg differance right that, but IDK. I think it may too come down to the luck of your Crits with ES because if it doesn't crit then ya i think FS > ES

[fakestreet]

I don't think this is accurate info to Base what is better considering what. That was a 4 min+ fight for you guys if I'm reading this right and he only had 17 shocks total? Again, IDK if i'm reading that right but only 17 shocks?

Or how does it work? Are the hit's and crit's seperate or? IDK!

I see 36.

[evan_s]

Yes hits and crits are separate. He had 5 hits with flameshock and 8 crits for 13 casts total. For earth shock it was 12 and 11 for a total of 36 socks which is pretty much the getting in every CD possible in a 4:44 fight.

[Deleted]

Kid comment. Guess that never gets old in WoW.

Ya, I actually want to switch to Glyph of Lightining Bolt after leaning how it scales better on single targets today. I actually assume that I'll get a nice little dps boost now that I know that. And I'm aslo not trying to teacher anyone anything. Everyone pay's there 15 bucks a month and can do w/e they want.

Still missing the point mate. Glyph of LB isn't good, its a tiny dps increase on a single ability.

Glyphs that are good typically boost more than one ability. eg: SS glyph boosts three abilities, ES, LS and LB which by a long way makes it our best glyph. FS glyph boosts all the dps abilities of your wolves. WF glyph gives you more WF attacks and more attacks mean more white hits = more berserking procs and more MW stacks as well as extra damage. Typically these three are top glyphs.

The same reason that LB is better than CL on single targets due to spellpower co-efficient scaling is the same reason that FS is better than ES. FS gets 10% spellpower bonus per tick with 6 ticks that's 60% spellpower bonus on the DoT component. Before the patch that lengthened it, it only did 4 ticks and thus only got 40% of our Spellpower and thus was underpowered compared to ES.

If you look at http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_power_coefficient you will see the co-efficients. ES = 38.58% FS = 21.42% and 60% for DoT. So do the maths.

Earth Shock does 849 to 895 = 872 average.

Flame Shock does 500 dmg + 834 over 18 seconds.

So what you do is take your buffed spellpower and add that in then take your buffed spell crit and apply that using the formula : total dmg = base dmg * 2.06 * crit chance + base dmg * (1-crit chance). It's 2.06 assuming you have a +3% crit meta gem as your talent Elemental Fury adds 100% spell damage boost to crit so instead of 1.03 it gets doubled to 2.06 which is good ie: we actually get 6% more crit damage from meta gem Note that formula assumes spell hit capped, if not then it would be reduced by miss rate.

Now you will know your average spellpower when buffed and your average spell crit so simply feed them in and see the totals for each spell.

eg: 3500 spellpower and 45% spell crit gives...

ES = 872 + 3500 * 38.58% = 872 + 1350.3 = 2222 dmg average with crits that is 2222 * 2.06 * 45% + 2222 * (1-45%) = 2059.794 + 1222.1 = 3282 damage average. With SS debuff and SS glyph that's 3282 + 3282 * 28% = 4201 average damage.

FS base = 500 + 3500 * 21.42% = 1250 dmg average with crits that is 1250 * 2.06 * 45% + 1250 * (1-45%) = 1158.75 + 687.5 = 1846 average.
FS DoT = 834 + 3500 * 60% = 2934 dmg (NB. NO crits as we couldn't care less about the glyph for this calc).
FS total = FS base + FS DoT = 1846 + 2934 = 4780 damage

Simple maths shows that FS beats ES!! Q.E.D.


Edit: Oops missed the 28% SS debuff boost.

Note that I didn't bother with things like the 13% damage boost from buffs as that affects nature & fire damage equally. I've assumed that the 45% spell crit includes all your raid buffs and debuffs obviously the figures would be slightly different if your spell crit is higher with the buffs you have. Procs that boost crit periodically would again affect things but that's where averaging out the proc to see its usual contribution helps. You can do this manually or use the coding I've already done for you in Rawr.Enhance.

[Zyster]

Nvm, I got it now, ya, In his/her case FS > ES, But with just 1k sp more (which I got) I'm sure that the ES > FS, specially since with the 2k dmg differance right that, but IDK. I think it may too come down to the luck of your Crits with ES because if it doesn't crit then ya i think FS > ES

Sorry just quoting this since i modified post too late

Thanks for clarafying that, I don't know how to read those logs yet lol. But finally found out

[Zyster]

I personally don't like WF glyph, thats just me, It already seems like to me that WF procs every time the internal cooldown or w/e it is is off

[evan_s]

As Levva's large post of math shows having more spell power makes it MORE favorable for flame shock as it gains more additional damage from the same amount of spell power. The only thing that pushes it earth shocks direction is crit rate since only part of the flame shock can crit with out the corresponding glyph.

Sure it is possible to get a lucky streak on earth shock and do more damage than you would have with flame shock but it's also possible to get an unlucky streak with crits and do even less damage. Over long periods of time flame shock will do more damage a long as the dot portion will run it's duration.

[Deleted]

ok, now i got it.


so FS IS BETTER THAN ES

Depends on the amount of AP/SP you have.
Reason is, that FS scales better with SP.
Earth Shock-initial gets 38.58% of your SP as damage, while FS gets 21.42% initial and 60% (10% per tick) DoT.
So ES gets 38.58% of your SP while FS gets 81.42%.
The thing you have to remember though:
ES is buffed by Stormstrike, so it'll get 28% more from SP. (meaning 38.58 x 1.28, not +20%)
So ES gets ~50% of your SP while FS gets 81.42%. Can't think of any other separate buffs for those two spells... so this should be about it.
ES has higher base-damage, but FS scales better with SP.


Dang, Levva beat me to it -.-

[pomop]

I personally don't like WF glyph, thats just me, It already seems like to me that WF procs every time the internal cooldown or w/e it is is off

I fail to believe your wf procs every 3 seconds.

WF iirc is a 20% flat proc rate.
2.6 weapon speed

that means technically once every 13 seconds WF will proc.

[Deleted]

Wow Levva i'm impressed you acturally went to such lenths to prove this guy wrong. Would of just linked to a spread sheet, but props for the work.

Also Zyster you can take this thread as a warning. Continue to flame/troll + talking about things you have no proof of will get you banned next time.

[Zyster]

I fail to believe your wf procs every 3 seconds.

WF iirc is a 20% flat proc rate.
2.6 weapon speed

that means technically once every 13 seconds WF will proc.

Ya, but other glyphs imo > 2% extra proc chance. Just my personal preferance. And I'm sure it doesnt proc every 3 seconds but I'd be safe to say maybe every 3-5 unless really unlucky

[Deleted]

PS. Zyster. I hope you now understand why I moved this to a separate post. Clearing up the misconceptions clearly warranted a new thread so the air could be cleared, rather than cluttering up the FAQ thread and making it more confusing for future readers.

[Deleted]

Wow Levva i'm impressed you acturally went to such lenths to prove this guy wrong. Would of just linked to a spread sheet, but props for the work.

Also Zyster you can take this thread as a warning. Continue to flame/troll + talking about things you have no proof of will get you banned next time.

Well give a guy a fish you feed him for a day, teach him how to fish and you feed him for life. Showing the formulae step by step so he can plug in his OWN values will allow him to prove to himself how FS beats ES with HIS values for spellpower and spell crit.

The only caveat is you must ALWAYS allow the DoT to run its full duration and get all 6 ticks off, if you clip it and only allow 4 or 5 ticks then you destroy the reason its better than Earth Shock.

[Zyster]

Wow Levva i'm impressed you acturally went to such lenths to prove this guy wrong. Would of just linked to a spread sheet, but props for the work.

Also Zyster you can take this thread as a warning. Continue to flame/troll + talking about things you have no proof of will get you banned next time.

Flame/troll? Read the start of this thread. I asked if I was missing something. So I was pretty much asking for more info on FS. Also what proof do I need? If you happen to ever get enough spell power to make it happen ES would > FS. And that would be if you ever could get enough SP. But GG, go ahead and perma band. Just made an account to try and help a fellow shaman out but ohz well. And i understand fully Levva and sorry for coming off rude. I was just wondering about FS due to me not using it in my Rotations. Don't even know what my very first post ever had anything to do with this thread to be honest, but it sure came up a lot

[fizzbob7]

Flame/troll? Read the start of this thread. I asked if I was missing something. So I was pretty much asking for more info on FS. Also what proof do I need? If you happen to ever get enough spell power to make it happen ES would > FS. And that would be if you ever could get enough SP. But GG, go ahead and perma band. Just made an account to try and help a fellow shaman out but ohz well. And i understand fully Levva and sorry for coming off rude. I was just wondering about FS due to me not using it in my Rotations. Don't even know what my very first post ever had anything to do with this thread to be honest, but it sure came up a lot

this forum is the most like EJ i've noticed. that's why i said es > fs because people love to prove you wrong and if you'll notice, that's when they'll break it down with math. otherwise they're more likely to just point you to a sticky you have to dig through and i know most people never do.

on EJ they'll just ban you, here, people will actually take the challenge

[fizzbob7]

Depends on the amount of AP/SP you have.
Reason is, that FS scales better with SP.
Earth Shock-initial gets 38.58% of your SP as damage, while FS gets 21.42% initial and 60% (10% per tick) DoT.
So ES gets 38.58% of your SP while FS gets 81.42%.
The thing you have to remember though:
ES is buffed by Stormstrike, so it'll get 28% more from SP. (meaning 38.58 x 1.28, not +20%)
So ES gets ~50% of your SP while FS gets 81.42%. Can't think of any other separate buffs for those two spells... so this should be about it.
ES has higher base-damage, but FS scales better with SP.


Dang, Levva beat me to it -.-

actually, by the time you're in triumph gear, FS is noticeably better even when just testing on a target dummy. i just geared my shaman up via heroics (was in t7 and you CAN'T tell much of a difference at that gear level) and in 4pc t9 with some 219-232 offpieces (around a 4900gs) FS is definitely better