We need to stop winning

[Shadowfeet]

In the end of everything, good always wins, you can be enslaved now, but nomatter what someone will slay the enslaver eventually, or the enslaver turns good, or sometimes he just moves on to something else.

No matter what, in the end the evil stops doing evil, atleast the the people hes currently pissing off.

Its not just in video games, its in history. Hitler was killed. Napoelian was killed. Sadam was killed. Whoever oppresses others will eventually loose, or, in the case of a country, would be defeated. The British were oppressing the colonists, they rebelled, british lost. Sparta was oppressing a neighboring people they conquered, the barely repelled their aggression, and years later Macedonia (SP?) took over and the remaining spartan slaves that had not become spartan citizens integrated into spartan culture. "No king rules forever" <-- WoW quote, is actually true. Everything falls eventually, there are brief eras of evil but eventually good always takes over, this will continue until we die. The US will fall one day, maybe Canada will invade with a clone army or W/E, nobody ever suspects the canadians...

Good always win because oppression and evil are negative. Not everyone in that "evil" society wants to embrace cruelty and tyranny. Those who hate it so much eventually will rebel and evil will go away. But evil itself will most likely never die, nor will good. It is a balancing act. Without evil, there can be no good. Without good, there can be no evil. There would be nothing to compare and contrast the two.

[EektheCat]

There was no "WINNER" in wrath it was the horde and alliance setting free a young hero who was imprisoned within himself by his hate. In return we the players put another hero into the hell that is the Frozen Throne.

There is no win here it is simpy how it had to end. Cata will be interesting but in the end it will at least I hope lead to the "end" which will be Deathwing tearing open the portals to another world and perhaps the next expansion being exploring this new world. However the next expansion might as well be the new war inbetween the alliance and horde where every city is a battleground and no where on any server is safe. Where the "raid" bosses are killing the leaders on the oppposite factions for good. Which would mean buffing the heck out of them.

[Kampret]

The problem is, this game is made by an American company, with a sizable chunk of American customers. And what is the one thing that Americans dont like?

Thats right, as in 99% Holywood movies, the good guy MUST win no matter the adversity, no matter how,no matter what.

I really love the OP's idea, i really do, it'll provide something different to the current slew of mmorpgs in the market.Hopefully some game company somewhere took up this idea

[Mindipedia]

The problem is, this game is made by an American company, with a sizable chunk of American customers. And what is the one thing that Americans dont like?

Thats right, as in 99% Holywood movies, the good guy MUST win no matter the adversity, no matter how,no matter what.

I really love the OP's idea, i really do, it'll provide something different to the current slew of mmorpgs in the market.Hopefully some game company somewhere took up this idea

What movies are you watching? I'm thinking more of a 75/25 split. THe majority of 'evil vs good' movies i see - good wins. But theres that small minority where evil comes out on top.


Anyway on topic; I absolutely love this idea. It seems to me (not pointing fingers) that some people posting didn't understand the concept of 'the beginning of the xpac we lose' (although what the OP said with the first raid being the one who lose - not a good idea imo) but if Blizz improve the phasing system by a fair whack then what OP is saying would be a ripper expansion.

Start off being mentally beat down, with all our armour stripped (obv not completely as no one likes their gear being gone forever) and simply just fodder. As the 'pockets of resistance" expand you re-capture the world and finally take the battle to the big baddie as revenge. Ofc this is a summarised version but hey - OP you got a killer idea, perfect it and sell it to Blizzard imho.

[Zakarun]

We need a storyline where we don't come out as the heroes. We need a whole expansion with this concept. Cataclysm is kind of pointing at that theme, but we need it to a greater extent.

For example, we could've lost to the Lich King. Everything we know would have been destroyed, cities and heroes. We spend the rest of the expansion fighting to regain back the things and lands we lost. This scenario would have had to start at the beginning of the expansion. As in the first raid boss would have been Arthas, we lose, then the story plays out as all of Azeroth is overrun.

The game needs to be turned on its head. We have to get away from the theme of: Hey look there's a bad guy, let’s go send our attack force to his footsteps and eventually kill him. It's too predictable and expected.

Again, Cataclysm seems to be going towards this idea, with Azeroth being attacked directly and changed for good. However, its needs to be done 100%. I'm talking Deathwing having control of everything, and we are held as slaves throughout the whole expansion. The play experience is us living in enemies cities, doing what they want. There are no more Alliance and Horde capital cities, no sanctuaries. We eventually form pockets of resistance, and form a formidable attack force. We start to have small encampments of freed alliance and horde forces. The raids are US defending against enemies trying to destroy our bases. Think role reversal. We sit inside the fortress/castle and our job is to defend against those people seeking to destroy us. Of course, the enemies will be computer controlled, just like raids now, but we basically just switch sides for the sake of the story. Then we eventually take out Deathwing.

Anyways, this is just my idea. I know it’s too late for this expansion, but perhaps the next one. We just need something different.

There are actually quite some nice ideas in this post, I've marked the ones I like and I think they are implementable.

[Aoemal]

The whole you lose at the start of the xpack idea was done it wrath... you know like we didn't just randomly go,
"oh ok we're bored out our heads, just stopped the burning legion invading azeroth again LETS ATTACK NORTHREND!!!111oneone"

Arthas sent scourge armys and Frost Wyrms to attack the alliance and the horde to provoke us, he could have sent more and wiped us out but he didn't because, as always he wanted to find strong powerful champions that he could reanimate and use as soldiers of the scourge.

We weren't totally down and out I admit but that was due to The Lich King's pure cockyness he thought no one could challenge him not even the ashbringer.

Ohh plus the whole "The raids would be us defending bases against the enemy" idea was already done, the was called Battle for Mount Hyjal and almost everyone hated it.

[Tryfis]

The whole you lose at the start of the xpack idea was done it wrath... you know like we didn't just randomly go,
"oh ok we're bored out our heads, just stopped the burning legion invading azeroth again LETS ATTACK NORTHREND!!!111oneone"

Arthas sent scourge armys and Frost Wyrms to attack the alliance and the horde to provoke us, he could have sent more and wiped us out but he didn't because, as always he wanted to find strong powerful champions that he could reanimate and use as soldiers of the scourge.

We weren't totally down and out I admit but that was due to The Lich King's pure cockyness he thought no one could challenge him not even the ashbringer.

Ohh plus the whole "The raids would be us defending bases against the enemy" idea was already done, the was called Battle for Mount Hyjal and almost everyone hated it.

I understand the attacks on the cities at the beginning of the expansion. It was also done with the Dark Portal before BC. However, they were just stand alone events that introduced the expansion. It wasn't the majority of the expansion. I understand world events like those seem to feed the thoughts I am presenting, but they need to be done to a bigger extreme. I was there when SW harbor was being attacked. Not once did I feel like anything significant happen.

And can you really speak for "everyone" and say it was not enjoyable?

[ItachiZaku]

They should loop it so that there is only one boss. He dies, thats' the end of it.

[davesurfer]

Wrathgate was a sort-of loss

naahh It was merely a setback

[Deleted]

naahh It was merely a setback

You win a cookie for knowing exactly when to use that particular meme for maximum comic effect. Congratulations!

[Shroud]

YOU dont win in a war thers never really a winner becuase each side goes through casualties example Bolvar Fordragon Saurfang Son not to mention all the champions who had to die to take down the Lich King whom in Turn was an Ally of ours until he was turned evil doesnt seem like a victory to me.War is a shallow mistress that doesnt care who wins but whos lefts

[Duftehwarrior]

meh, dont think blizz would be in to such a grim story. i think azeroth getting destroyed by the cataclysm, the horde and alliance taking over places and in a much more aggressive state, chopping down all of ashenvale, and other stuffs, is good enough to meet your needs for a less predictable story.

[Geminiel]

The problem with the expansions is there is no emotional attachment. I made a thread attempting to be comical about this expansions previously and I explained that this expansion had so much promise but without emotional attachment lore wise it feels like a bit of a let down. This was a war, heroes die in a war. I don't care if we ultimately win but when the all powerful lich king kills only 1 significant character in saurfang jr. who we don't know anything about then it doesn't feel like a damn war. In terms of major characters we didn't lose one this expansion and because of that this expansion failed emotionally. Personally when Bolvar died I thought it added a lot of emotional impact that such a major character just died without a fucking 20 page monologue. Sometimes important people get caught at the wrong place at the wrong time, thus is the nature of war and allowing Bolvar of all people to die so suddenly created a huge emotional impact on anyone who cared about his lore.

Bringing him back was simply a security measure for blizzard to ensure they can revisit the lich king if they decide to in the future which, in my opinion, just goes in line with the continuous mistakes blizzard makes of "Merely a set back". Why don't good guys stay dead in this world? Hell even bad guys don't stay dead until we kill them twice.

Every good guy that dies comes back to life and helps us eventually, every bad guy comes back and we kill him again. Imagine if you read a good book, for sake of setting similarity I will choose Lord of the Rings. For those of you who enjoyed the book imagine every major bad guy killed in LotR came back in the next book for us to fight again, and every good guy who died came back to help the remaining in the next book. Gandolf is the only character in LotR who pulled a Kael'Thas if memory serves me correctly. Everytime someone else died they stayed dead causing an emotional reaction with the reader knowing that someone you've read 500 pages about is no longer a part of this story and probably died to allow the story to continue.

I'm sorry but at least Blizzard hasn't tainted Starcraft yet with "Merely Setbacks" Phoenix is the only character and I guess the Overmind but by nature he can be rebuilt and make logical sense due to the powers that brought it to life. Diablo II was merely a set back Diablo I was all a part of the plan. Tempest Keep Naxxramas, Azjol Nerub, Molten Core, Utgarde Keep, Old Kingdom. To much shit. Anyways I'm done rambling.

TL;DR Characters need to stay dead because I'm damn sick of everything being "Merely a Setback" Why won't anyone stay dead in this crazy world.

[Shroud]

List of Heros who are dead and not coming back Teneras Uther Arthas Saurfang Broxgar the red Grom hellscream Bolvar is good as dead now king Liane all the heros who sacrficed there lives in the past 4 years of World of Warcraft and those to come in Catalcysm Maelstrom Emerald Dream and the Strike at the Heart of the Burning Legion where ever the hell that is.Yeah the Story could have been better but thats what happens when things dont go according to the plan blizzard had setup take the good with the bad.

[Grimgore]

The problem as I see it is that Blizzard wanted to make the final villian 'present' for people to see as they are leveling up. That in itself is fine but the problem arises when Arthas shows up and doesn't do much of anything, and then leaves. Wrathgate saw the sorta-deaths of two major horde/alliance characters (although only one was actually killed by Arthas) and that was pretty effective. Any other time we see Arthas he's creating new soldiers right in front of us and then leaving, which gives the impression that he's weak. I know he supposed to be 'toughening us up' so we'll be better soldiers when he eventually turns us, but that just didn't translate very well. I never got any sense of awe or fear or anything when I saw Arthas, other than at the Wrathgate.

Basically, he needed to just DO SOMETHING. Maybe have a quest where we are after some holy relic that has the power to stop/severely weaken Arthas, and in the final step of the chain as we're about to deliver it to whoever can actually use it properly, Arthas pops up and kills that person, raises them as an undead minion, and forces that minion to suicide itself using the holy relic, destroying it in the process. SOMETHING like that. Something that pisses you off and makes you want to go after Arthas.. something that has you chomping at the bit to lay your hands on him. If something truly terrible happened whenever you see him as you're leveling up, you'll get that 'oh no, we're about to get owned' feeling the NEXT time you see him and it'll just fuel your desire to kill him eventually.

[Haven]

The idea itself is good, i remember suggesting stuff like that myself, like if the Lich King counter-attacked after the Wrathgate and turned most of the Dragonblight into a deathzone, and killed Krasus in the process, now that would be something... Eh, dreams. Kicking the ass of every villain in the same manner (step1: we're badly overpowered and doomed, step2: we've fully cleared zone1, step3: we killed all high ranking badguys, step4: we farm the arch-villain) is boring as hell.

I'd love to see some Old God deceiver to manipulate us, heroes, to bring the world to the new order. Like, massive mind-control in Stomwind and we have no choice but to cut our way out through women and children... and the survivors will fully retain their memories and blame you...

[Zonas]

YOU dont win in a war thers never really a winner becuase each side goes through casualties example Bolvar Fordragon Saurfang Son not to mention all the champions who had to die to take down the Lich King whom in Turn was an Ally of ours until he was turned evil doesnt seem like a victory to me.War is a shallow mistress that doesnt care who wins but whos lefts

Well Saurfang Jr. isnt really a loss :-\ i mean before he was put in BC was there ever any mention in WoW or lolore that said saurfang had a son? Even if their was he didnt do jack but give us a few easy mode quests and then get wtf one shot by LK.

And Bolvar... well he may of been epic lolore wise but in game i never really saw how people thought of him as cool. Never saw him do anything good and he just used to sit there being a childs nanny while a black dragon is loling behind him about how easy it was for her to get inside SW and close to the child king.

[Powell]

like, sitting in 1place killing bosses?
aka defending the place? go do ToC and tell me what you think.

the concept is fine, i love the idea, with zone phasing, etc, since they have the techonology for it.

[ComputerNerd]

Everyone has different ideas, and whatever "ending" there may be to an expansion then there will be complaints about it.
There is never going to be some ultimate victory where all is calm afterwards.
The scourge is more of an existence than simply just the lich king and his creations, so it is not something which can be wiped out and be done with.
They were present for a long time prior to this and simply before arthas did not have the momentum nor the motivation to do what they did.
Whatever we get it will not please everyone, so complain to blizzard directly if you can put forward a good point, but is has happened so get over it and enjoy the game, otherwise quit and let the rest of us do that.

[Serenais]

I "think" that "all is destroyed for us to regain" will be a setting for the last WoW expansion... It would ease up the transition from WoW to WoW2.