About MF clipping (one more time !)

[tomazy]

Hello guys,

SP was one of the only class (with warrior) that i didn't try @ lvl80, so i'm lvling one actually.
i just ding 70 so i'm starting to test rotations. I've read a lot here and on shadowpriest.com about the stats, the priority etc...
There is just one question I still can't answer.
If VT or DP need to be recast while you're channeling MF, will you clip it ? at 1 tick ? 2 tick ?
I tried to not clip it, and then clip it a 2ticks, i barely saw a difference in dps.

Thanks for reading, and sorry about my english

Pharaoh

[Cearat]

I think its refreshing the dots after MF is done. If not, it was with warlocks drain soul.

[K4ge]

vt and dp DON'T get reset by mf, only swp does.
I'd go with my instinct to not clip, however, for accurate results go to ej and/or shadowpriest.com

[Weena2]

Don't clip MF, its been shown that unless your are an exceptional player and have extremely low MS, like under 40 that is about the only time you can clip. More often than not trying to clip your dots leads to a dps loss rather than a gain.

[Kelesti]

Clipping Mind Flay? It's such a low portion of your DPS that you should be interrupting it to get your DoT uptime higher, at all times. There are of course latency and perfect timing issues that make clipping better for some than others, but if you're delaying a Vampiric Touch because you're casting mind flay, that's lost DPS.

It's harder to time your DoTs to have perfect refresh times, but judging for like a third of a second (accounting for latency) off isn't that far out, so long as you keep your Mind Flay as low a priority as it should be.

Also, there is a MF2 clip addon for Quartz which gives you the optimal time (assuming your current latency remains stable) to clip it, so that you're not casting 2 Mind Flay ticks and half of a third before clipping, or only one and three quarters (thus spending the time but getting zero damage out).

Highly Recommended you check that one out before testing your clip priorities again.

[Nymie]

Also, there is a MF2 clip addon for Quartz which gives you the optimal time (assuming your current latency remains stable) to clip it, so that you're not casting 2 Mind Flay ticks and half of a third before clipping, or only one and three quarters (thus spending the time but getting zero damage out).

Gnosis is another addon option, I think by the same author as the Quartz MF. Highly configurable.

[Deleted]

Don't clip MF, its been shown that unless your are an exceptional player and have extremely low MS, like under 40 that is about the only time you can clip. More often than not trying to clip your dots leads to a dps loss rather than a gain.

What's the theory behind that? I cannot see the logic.

The risk of clipping MF too early and loosing a tick is the same with full MF3 as with MF2. The next spell should be timed similary after the last tick. Timing the spells with high latency is harder but changing priority doesn't help the situation. You cannot spam next spell while channeling anyway, unless you use nochanneling macros, which is bad with high latency because it's a client side check and doesn't allow you to compensate for lag, making it even worse. Nochanneling macros are good with low latency, like <100ms, because you cannot humanly compensate for lag that small anyway, so it's easier and safer just to spam spells with the macros. With 4pc T10 you could probably add the nochanneling macros to MF and also MB. Personally I still dislike the macros, because ICC has lots of spell pushback and I often need to clip MF2 just cast another MF.

I see it quite the opposite. With ultra low latency like 0-40ms manually timing a MF clip is going to lose you time, every time. Badly timed MF2 clip could easily cost 100-200ms, which could negate the gain you were trying to achieve by clipping. With nochanneling macros on the other hand, you can't mess it up.

MF should always be clipped to refresh dots. As long as dots do more dmg/cast time than MF, they have priority (otherwise dots would be left out of the rotation anyway). Clipping MF after 2nd tick only hurts your damage-per-mana, it has no other downside (unless you play with the ultra low latency I mentioned earlier). So why not clip?

On a side note:
I have noticed that with 4pc T10 set bonus it is much easier to clip MF too early, similar to how it was in the early WotLK, although not as bad. With the set bonus it is possible to clip MF unintentionally, even if you hit the red zone on Quartz cast bar. This never happened without the set bonus. I had to chance my timing so that don't hit next spell until the second half of the red latency zone. Because I can't compensate for latency effectively anymore, I might give the macros another try.

Anyone else noticed this?

[TheRabidDeer]

What's the theory behind that? I cannot see the logic.

The risk of clipping MF too early and loosing a tick is the same with full MF3 as with MF2. The next spell should be timed similary after the last tick. Timing the spells with high latency is harder but changing priority doesn't help the situation. You cannot spam next spell while channeling anyway, unless you use nochanneling macros, which is bad with high latency because it's a client side check and doesn't allow you to compensate for lag, making it even worse. Nochanneling macros are good with low latency, like <100ms, because you cannot humanly compensate for lag that small anyway, so it's easier and safer just to spam spells with the macros. With 4pc T10 you could probably add the nochanneling macros to MF and also MB. Personally I still dislike the macros, because ICC has lots of spell pushback and I often need to clip MF2 just cast another MF.

I see it quite the opposite. With ultra low latency like 0-40ms manually timing a MF clip is going to lose you time, every time. Badly timed MF2 clip could easily cost 100-200ms, which could negate the gain you were trying to achieve by clipping. With nochanneling macros on the other hand, you can't mess it up.

MF should always be clipped to refresh dots. As long as dots do more dmg/cast time than MF, they have priority (otherwise dots would be left out of the rotation anyway). Clipping MF after 2nd tick only hurts your damage-per-mana, it has no other downside (unless you play with the ultra low latency I mentioned earlier). So why not clip?

On a side note:
I have noticed that with 4pc T10 set bonus it is much easier to clip MF too early, similar to how it was in the early WotLK, although not as bad. With the set bonus it is possible to clip MF unintentionally, even if you hit the red zone on Quartz cast bar. This never happened without the set bonus. I had to chance my timing so that don't hit next spell until the second half of the red latency zone. Because I can't compensate for latency effectively anymore, I might give the macros another try.

Anyone else noticed this?

Its got a shorter spell cast but the bar is still the same length, so the red zone you were aiming for before is the same, but appears larger. So if you clipped at right at the edge before it was actually a little bit different than where you are now.

[Weena2]

If you cast a find flay you can 'end' it at two points. The first is after the second tick and the second is after the third tick, now a clip is stopping your MF cast after two ticks. The problem with clipping at two is that there is a chance you will fail and cut it after one tick, resulting in a loss of dps. There also is another possiblity that you clip it too late and therefore you clipped it right before the third one.

I don't clip, and my dps is fine, trust me:

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/11815389#damageout
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/11815390#damageout
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/11815391#damageout

but yeah you can clip, i don't care your probably losing dps unless you have less than 40 MS and are an amazing player.

Also another thing with 4pt10 your MF has a higher DPET than previously, as well as it is only a 1.1-2sec cast in a raid, meaning you can time it so that you never have to clip in order to refresh dots.

[Deleted]

If you cast a find flay you can 'end' it at two points. The first is after the second tick and the second is after the third tick, now a clip is stopping your MF cast after two ticks. The problem with clipping at two is that there is a chance you will fail and cut it after one tick, resulting in a loss of dps. There also is another possiblity that you clip it too late and therefore you clipped it right before the third one.

I know what MF clipping is. How is the situation any different when ending after the 3rd tick?
Ending MF after 3rd tick has the same problem, you can cast next spell too early resulting in only 2 ticks, or too late costing you time. I already said this in the 1st post btw.
The only difference comes from the possibility of using nochanneling macros when not clipping, but you haven't mentioned using them.

but yeah you can clip, i don't care your probably losing dps unless you have less than 40 MS and are an amazing player.

I wanted to know the theory behind this, explanation or link to source. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

[Weena2]

I wanted to know the theory behind this, explanation or link to source. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

Taken from http://www.shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=24328

Clipping MF at 2 ticks

Some shadowpriests clip MF at 2 ticks in order to get more Mind Blasts. Is this beneficial? How precisely do you have to clip so that you don't lose DPS? I will compare two scenarios:

I) 3 ticks of mindflay, plus delay, then mindblast.
II) 2 ticks of mindflay, plus delay, then mindblast.

It was rightfully pointed out that you get a similar delay whether you clip with 2 ticks or 3. The question is, how much delay does it take to make clipping counterproductive?

For these comparisons we will use a base haste value of 511 Haste Rating. This translates into 15.58% haste from gear, which multiplied with 8.15% Haste from raidbuffs equals exactly 25% Haste. Therefore, Mind Blast will cast in 1.2 seconds and Mind Flay will tick every 0.8 seconds.

-----
I) 3*MF+MB = 3504.99 + 312.523%*SP = 14443 damage over 3600ms
II) 2*MF+MB = 3039.23 + 242.291%*SP = 11519 damage over 2800ms

I deals 4012 DPS, while II deals 4114 DPS. It is obvious that clipping mindflay gives a VERY small bonus if any - even with zero delay.

-----
To solve for the maximum tolerable delay X, we want the DPS to be equal between I and II:
14443/(3600+X) = 11519/(2800+X)

(2800+X) = (3600+X)*(11519/14443) = 2871+0.7975X
0.2025*X = 71
X = 351 milliseconds

This is a fairly high number, meaning that latency should not make clipping counter-productive. However, the point remains that even "perfect" MF clipping provides a vanishingly small DPS benefit. For this reason, if you have any uncertainty about MF clipping (for example, if you mis-clip and wind up with MF1) then you should not do it at all.




I also will quote myself once more:

but yeah you can clip, i don't care your probably losing dps unless you have less than 40 MS and are an amazing player.

[fizzbob7]

if you CAN'T clip then you'll never do enough dps for it to matter anyway

that's why the spriest "rotation" is one of the harder ones.....timing

average player doesn't have the hardware or the ability to clip, to time reapp of dots perfectly, etc

that's why a GOOD spriest is a LONG way ahead of an average spriest

my gear isn't great because i've been selling all my saronite to pay for epic flying on alts, and to just save up until cataclysm hits. i'm basically stuck with what i get in ICC off bosses, which is fine, but people who have GS 500 points higher than me rarely outdps me.

i have my timing down and until 3.3, i almost never had over 47ms latency, although now it has been spiking on 3 different battlegroups i play on and doesn't look to be getting better. that HAS negatively affected my dps but still, timing is the key.

if your timing sucks, give up on optimum spriest dps, it just won't happen.

[Weena2]

if you CAN'T clip then you'll never do enough dps for it to matter anyway

that's why the spriest "rotation" is one of the harder ones.....timing

average player doesn't have the hardware or the ability to clip, to time reapp of dots perfectly, etc

that's why a GOOD spriest is a LONG way ahead of an average spriest

my gear isn't great because i've been selling all my saronite to pay for epic flying on alts, and to just save up until cataclysm hits. i'm basically stuck with what i get in ICC off bosses, which is fine, but people who have GS 500 points higher than me rarely outdps me.

i have my timing down and until 3.3, i almost never had over 47ms latency, although now it has been spiking on 3 different battlegroups i play on and doesn't look to be getting better. that HAS negatively affected my dps but still, timing is the key.

if your timing sucks, give up on optimum spriest dps, it just won't happen.

While im at it i want to say that this statement is false. I know many shadowpriests, including myself that live in Australia and all do amazing dps, i cannot speak for all of them but if you look at the oceanic realms and then go to the WMO shadowpriest dps rankings (found here - http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/clazz/dps/pri/9/6/3) you will see a large number are from Oceanic servers. Incase you dont know oceanic servers i would do a CTRL + F on Barthilas, Frostmourne and Dreadmaul. There are some oceanic shadowpriests that do very good dps with terrible MS.

[Tihr]

Clipping Mind Flay? It's such a low portion of your DPS that you should be interrupting it to get your DoT uptime higher, at all times. There are of course latency and perfect timing issues that make clipping better for some than others, but if you're delaying a Vampiric Touch because you're casting mind flay, that's lost DPS.

I really wish you would stop giving out inaccurate info. With 4pc T10, you shouldn't clip Flays, at all, as Weena said.

[TheRabidDeer]

if you CAN'T clip then you'll never do enough dps for it to matter anyway

that's why the spriest "rotation" is one of the harder ones.....timing

average player doesn't have the hardware or the ability to clip, to time reapp of dots perfectly, etc

that's why a GOOD spriest is a LONG way ahead of an average spriest

my gear isn't great because i've been selling all my saronite to pay for epic flying on alts, and to just save up until cataclysm hits. i'm basically stuck with what i get in ICC off bosses, which is fine, but people who have GS 500 points higher than me rarely outdps me.

i have my timing down and until 3.3, i almost never had over 47ms latency, although now it has been spiking on 3 different battlegroups i play on and doesn't look to be getting better. that HAS negatively affected my dps but still, timing is the key.

if your timing sucks, give up on optimum spriest dps, it just won't happen.

Just how much DPS do you do with your super amazing latency and what is your gear like? I generally beat shadow priests by a significant margin with an average of 200-300ms latency (usually 8.5k-9.5k dps depending on movement), even if they have equal or better gear than me. I only occasionally clipped MF, but it is usually quite rare.

[fizzbob7]

While im at it i want to say that this statement is false. I know many shadowpriests, including myself that live in Australia and all do amazing dps, i cannot speak for all of them but if you look at the oceanic realms and then go to the WMO shadowpriest dps rankings (found here - http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/clazz/dps/pri/9/6/3) you will see a large number are from Oceanic servers. Incase you dont know oceanic servers i would do a CTRL + F on Barthilas, Frostmourne and Dreadmaul. There are some oceanic shadowpriests that do very good dps with terrible MS.

what statement is false? that someone with poor timing can be a great shadowpriest? it's completely impossible. they'll either be clipping vt, mf-->mb or dp which is a dps loss

or they'll be casting them a second late which is a dps loss (that's why a certain % of dot uptime is considered necessary)

you obviously misunderstood me or in your country "timing" means something totally different

btw, 200-300ms latency is fine, it's barely noticeable and since some spriest specific addons even ACCOUNT FOR THAT then i'm not sure what the point of mentioning that is. so many who play on non-us realms assume we all have 1ms latency or something. since 3.3, there has been not only higher average latency across all battlegroups (2 unscheduled maintenance days to fix this, multiple restarts to fix this, still there) but SPIKES

i can deal with 500ms latency if it's consistent, i can't deal with 50ms latency that spikes to 500ms every so often, that's a DPS killer

like i said, if you don't have the timing to clip a mind flay you don't have the timing to be a good shadowpriest, that's totally unrelated to whether you clip or not

over 25% haste + raid buffs without the 4pct10 you WILL have dead time where SWD isn't off CD, mind blast isn't off CD and 2 ticks of MF won't fit, so really, it works out for mf3 instead of mf2 since you're not forced to fit it all in like you did with 10% haste and 5/5mb

[fizzbob7]

Just how much DPS do you do with your super amazing latency and what is your gear like? I generally beat shadow priests by a significant margin with an average of 200-300ms latency (usually 8.5k-9.5k dps depending on movement), even if they have equal or better gear than me. I only occasionally clipped MF, but it is usually quite rare.

since you didn't read my post completely:

since 3.3, latency hasn't been "super great"

my gear score is under 5100 and i mentioned that i sell every saronite i get (i also just buy saronites with badges) and just roll with whatever drops off bosses. i've hit 8k a time or two but it's usually closer to 7k in 25m with a boomkin/unholydk/elemental shaman in the raid on a fight like festergut

i ran into an spriest who did AS MUCH dps as me, he had the proper rotation, but he had a 5600gs and he clipped his dot reapp a few times, every MF went to 3 ticks, etc.

competence and timing are worth more than anything. if you have competence, timing and better gear you're one step ahead then, aren't you?

i have no plans to log in to warcraft for a while or maybe until cataclysm comes out. sub ran out 5 days ago and i just don't care that much, haven't had fun playing it in months

[Nezoia]

Thumb rules:

Bad gear: Clip MF for all DoTs and MB
Good gear: Clip MF for all DoTs, but not MB
4xT10: Never clip MF (and don't use MB )

And for the nutters who say 2-300 ms is fine, IT'S NOT. It's a huge dps loss, and will remove your ability to clip any spell entirely. Don't clip MF unless you play with sub 100ms latency.

Personally I raid with 23ms...

[Weena2]

Personally I raid with 23ms...

I hate you

[Worshaka]

Don't clip MF, its been shown that unless your are an exceptional player and have extremely low MS, like under 40 that is about the only time you can clip. More often than not trying to clip your dots leads to a dps loss rather than a gain.

Love to see those results

Clipping MF to cast a spell that is higher on the priority list is always a DPS gain... the contingency though is to clip MF at 2 ticks and what Weena may be alluding to is that with the current levels of haste and 4pc T10 clipping at 2 ticks is becomming increasingly difficult. Clip too early and u end up with 1 tick of MF which is worse than SW, clip too late and you might as well have waited for the 3rd and final tick.

I'd suggest that you clip MF until 4pc T10 and then it's probably best to not worry about it. Given that amount of gear you're going to find that MF is going to be very similar to MB in terms of DPS... however i'd still be inclined to think about clipping MF for VT or DP given their extremely high DPEt.