Black Magic better than Berserking?

[Krid]

I saw a rogue on our server with black magic on both of their weapons. This was a combat rogue. I asked him why and he just said because it's best. Can I get an explanation as to why? (I don't believe him)

[Leios the Worstcase]

Spreadsheet!!!

But no generally Black Magic will still be behind Berserker but not by that much.

[Eldar45]

Unless Black Magic procs off of poisons, its useles for a rogue. It procs off harmful spells.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=59625

[Zidius]

idk i have to disagree about it being the best....the tooltip says "permanently enchant a melee weapon to cause your harmful spells to sometimes increase haste rating. Requires a level 60 or higher item." and rogues have no harmful spells....it may proc off of poisons which *could* be considered spell dmg if used loosely but i don't think it would work...ofc i don't have an 80 rogue so i can't say for sure...plus i think either DWing Berserking or having Berserking+Mongoose would perform better but thats just my opinion

[Gadix]

I'm no rogue, but as a caster I did a bit of research into this enchant (and decided to get it). If the comments on wowhead are reliable, poisons do indeed proc Black Magic, however the proc does not stack and both weapons share the same ICD, so enchanting it on both weapons is a waste.

[Pikapika]

The only reason BM was brought up in theorycrafting is because it was modeled incorrectly on Mavanas' sheet, showing an increase over zerking. On live it always has been and always will be shit.

[jtstormrage]

Well for combat rogues with different speed weapons I do not think they would proc at the same time.

[topfer]

don't melee gain more from haste than casters? 250 melee haste is kind of crazy, like 8%

[Deleted]

it does not matter if your MH/OH attacks are desynched. the proc shares the ICD over both weapons, meaning that if one procs, the other cannot proc until the ICD is done. since they can't proc at the same time, only 1 proc will be up at all times. in that case, one enchant is wasted.

and besides, i don't think having 250 haste beats 400 AP, which can go to 800 AP.

let me just take a rogue from one of your sigs and sim it in Rawr.

edit: strangely, judging from the rogue in the OP's sig and based on a fully raidbuffed character, both executioner and black magic seem to come on top over berserker. but this could be because i set the options wrong. i used the combat compendium sticky on here, but it does not always give all info.

[dazline]

as an offhand enchant black magic does pull ahead if your at the right gear lvls, for an enhanc shammy black magic on offhand is equal if not better than mongoose. Not sure how it comepares for rogues but considering i wouldnt says its better or worse. 250 haste if your not pushing big dr on your current haste would be a nice dps increase.

[mypally]

Poisons work of the spell hit cap, so they count as spells. an earlier poster said it well though, not only can only 1 be procced at a time, but 400-800 ap up a very large amount of the time is going to be better for most rogues then 250 haste. I can see a mh chanted with black magic oh with beserking working half decently though, but would need a spread sheet to confirm it (for combat btw, even though mut might have more "spells" in envenom, they do not gain as much from haste as combat does, gogo white dmg)

[Pikapika]

as an offhand enchant black magic does pull ahead if your at the right gear lvls, for an enhanc shammy black magic on offhand is equal if not better than mongoose. Not sure how it comepares for rogues but considering i wouldnt says its better or worse. 250 haste if your not pushing big dr on your current haste would be a nice dps increase.

And zerking still pulls ahead of those 2 for enh shaman 100% of the time. Same as with rogues, BM was only considered for enh because of a sim error.

[Halceon]

off topic, but is it just me, or is it annoying when non-rogues post their opinion on something, but there opinion is based on another class in the rogue forums?

[Kelticfox]

off topic, but is it just me, or is it annoying when non-rogues post their opinion on something, but there opinion is based on another class in the rogue forums?

Indeed.

It's not entirely beneficial to be told that Black Magic is great for casters (unless I missed the memo where Rogues became a caster?)

[mypally]

Indeed.

It's not entirely beneficial to be told that Black Magic is great for casters (unless I missed the memo where Rogues became a caster?)

think its more about whether or not we can get the haste from it. personaly, i wouldnt go away from beserking unless i saw it become really main stream. Stuff that does seem straight forward or "working as intended" is stuff i try to avoid.

[K4ge]

It is working as intended, ie it proccs of poisons and envenom. However, due to different procc mechanics and ICD the uptime is considerably lower than berserking.

[Vonlego]

Yes, it will proc and give a rogue haste because poisons trigger it.

There was an error in the sim resulting in it being better than beserking, it is not better than berserking on your two weapons.

Yes, people have mentioned swapping in a third weapon and due to it not having a thirty second cooldown time before proc it has shown up as a dps increase in theory. No, it is not worth it in practice. This was a few months ago, and I am not sure if anything else has come out since then.

[Krid]

Thanks for all of the feedback!

[Fornaw]

Indeed.

It's not entirely beneficial to be told that Black Magic is great for casters (unless I missed the memo where Rogues became a caster?)

Who said you had to have a rogue to know a lot about black magic?

My main is enhance, when they made the change to black magic to be procing haste instead of a procing dot enhancers tested this enchant. It was determined that yes it could proc off the flametongue weapon imbue (which has always worked very similarly to poisons) but the ICD on the enchant made it worse than berserking. In fact like a lot of trinkets the proc chance is sufficiently high that the enchant will proc again almost immediately after its ICD is up, but even modeling it as a 100% proc chance after the end of the ICD made it an inferior enchant.

[Krid]

I didn't even realize that they changed this enchant lol.