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  1. #1

    Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Yep I said it. I see so many people recommending for disc priests to gem spellpower/haste and favor haste gear over crit, etc etc. In 25 man the majority of your healing should come from pw shield, pom, and penance. Typically I may cast flash/binding heal like 6-10 times in an encounter in 25 man since the aforementioned spells are more powerful for 25 man, and each of those casts is typically hasted by 31% with talents. How does haste benefit those spells? Well, for pw shield it doesnt benefit you at all - you're at 1 sec gcd with hardly any haste from gear. PoM? Same story. Penance? Your penance will cast very slightly faster, but with 31% haste from enlightenment + borrowed time pumping haste is pretty much useless on penance. Your flash heal will cast slightly faster but you'll still be GCD limited - your throughput will not increase. With 625 haste (much more than I need btw) my flash heal is already well under 1 second with borrowed time.

    So when is haste useful? It's useful when your spamming flash/binding heal - meaning you don't have borrowed time up, which typically only happens in 10 man and VERY occasionally in 25 man (northrend beasts, particularly when it was new content).

    I see again and again people recommending to new disc priests to drop their spellpower/int gems for spellpower/haste, which if they play the spec correctly will offer next to no benefits in 25 man raids. People argue that "disc priests never go oom." Yes, yes they do. If you are not going oom then you are not casting on every GCD - watch my video I posted of Lichking 25 a few days ago, I was getting mana back in every possible way and mana was still an issue. Faction champs heroic, another fight where I have had the #1 disc parse for a period of time, is another fight I frequently go oom on while receiving innervates. Intellect is not a waste at this point even in all 264 gear - maybe, just maybe at 277 ilvl that will change, but right now it really hasn't. Adding haste to your gear for 25 man on the other hand is adding no benefit to the majority of the spells you should be casting. Ideally you should have a bunch of haste gear for 10 man that you can switch to, but for anyone who cares mostly about 25 man, I'd say take crit over haste, and for most fights, even take spirit and mp5 over haste. That is all.

  2. #2

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    it adds to the cast of your pw:s when there is any non-instant cast being used. not flash spam but rather pw:s-penance-pom-whateverinstantspellwithfancynameyoucanthinkofthatisusefulforadiscpriest-flash/gh or whatever. after that flash/gh/poh/whateverfancyspellwithacasttime your next pw:s will not have bt.

    if you're only thinking of fights with heavy constant raiddamage then haste will be mostly useless (although in most circumstances unavoidable on gear) but on alot of fight it's not useless.
    I believe those that embrace haste is people that got quite alot of it through the gear they weretrying to get anyway and then adopted to a situation where it is again beneficial.

  3. #3

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiduZ

    I see again and again people recommending to new disc priests to drop their spellpower/int gems for spellpower/haste, which if they play the spec correctly will offer next to no benefits in 25 man raids. People argue that "disc priests never go oom." Yes, yes they do. If you are not going oom then you are not casting on every GCD - watch my video I posted of Lichking 25 a few days ago, I was getting mana back in every possible way and mana was still an issue. Faction champs heroic, another fight where I have had the #1 disc parse for a period of time, is another fight I frequently go oom on while receiving innervates. Intellect is not a waste at this point even in all 264 gear - maybe, just maybe at 277 ilvl that will change, but right now it really hasn't. Adding haste to your gear for 25 man on the other hand is adding no benefit to the majority of the spells you should be casting. Ideally you should have a bunch of haste gear for 10 man that you can switch to, but for anyone who cares mostly about 25 man, I'd say take crit over haste, and for most fights, even take spirit and mp5 over haste. That is all.
    How about letting the other healers heal instead of healing like a nutcase. Then you'll have mana to spare.

  4. #4

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by plee
    How about letting the other healers heal instead of healing like a nutcase. Then you'll have mana to spare.
    Let me turn that around and retort - if you have mana to spare, you weren't healing as hard as you could have or should have. Disc is different from other healers because you can always be casting on every gcd. Even in the unlikely event that everyone has pw shield on them you can still penance to stack aegis or renew tanks, refresh pom etc. As disc you should be striving to cast on every gcd and minimizing your downtime. the damage that healers have to heal through isn't like cherry pie, it isn't supposed to be shared evenly - do as much as you possibly can and hope that the other healers are doing the same. Do the job your assigned to do or the job you should be doing, and maximize your healing at the same time.

  5. #5

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    People have different playstyles - end of, some might argue the way you're healing isn't ideal and others might say it's perfect.

    As for me, I've gone for some form of balance between crit and haste - standing at 756 haste 600 crit [And I haven't gemmed towards either stats], with 34.4k mana in a 25m raid, almost 40% crit with a boomkin. Granted, I'd rather have gear with crit - but there's so much gear with haste, that I just nabbed for sake of more SP [e.g. - Ashen Verdict of Wisdom ring... psh], while sacrificing some crit.

    I use BT off shielding for burst healing, but I just wouldn't go to the lengths of using a shield on every cast [seems that's what you're doing], just for a faster cast with somewhat unneccessary usage of mana. As I said earlier, generally I just keep my shields for the burst healing when the situation demands it, shield those low on health and maybe burst heal those if the tank's fine or were being targeted by a special move, etc.

    That, and I like to have me Flash heal on a permanently low cast time [1.18s atm with no buffs] as a filler.

  6. #6
    Fluffy Kitten Ultima's Avatar
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    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Firstly, there are two types of Disc Healers in a 25 raid.

    The raid mitigator which is what you are talking about. They shield spam, they PoM spam and they shoot Penance to save people where Shield may not cut it.

    The tank healer, I think is a bad use as we can't solo support a tank the way a Healadin can, sure, we can Shield -> Penance -> GHeal, but that's only every 13 seconds, with Flash Spam in-between, orrrrr with enough Haste we can use Greater Heal spam, hard on the mana but with some proper CD management you can handle it. But not as effective as a Holy Paladin.

    Now, for your role, the RM (raid mitigator), you cannot have 100% up-time of Borrowed Time, you know that. Therefore Flash Heal will not always be under the GCD, and if you Shield someone to cast Flash Heal, that takes longer than just normally casting Flash Heal due to the GBC (1-1.5s depending on haste/Borrowed Time + the cast time of FHeal with BT -vs- 1.2/3 FHeal, it's 1.1 for some Disc Priests, I forget mine).

    Haste has its uses, definately. Definately better than Spirit in my opinion. Yes, we can oom, but just because you oom'd in your first LK kill doesn't mean people won't learn and less damage will be taken the next time, you can't carry everyone. You shouldn't carry everyone.

    I'd never turn my SP+Int into SP+Haste gems though, touch wood.
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  7. #7

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    I can't agree with TiduZ more. I have noticed the same facts as he. Hase rly gives almost nothing to disc priest. In my opiniom disc is one of the most mobile healer. I am pretty sure that even more mobile than druid(but there I can be wrong). Disc main spells are PW:S, PoM which can be always used when moving. Only spell u need to stop is Penance, and some sniped flash heals. From the other hand when u re playing tank disc... that is other story.
    Anyway I prefer crit over haste. Crit gives more divine aegis and inspiration on raid members.
    At my disc pries I am having like 35% crit UB and 17%haste. I am aiming for 20% but rly can't say why. Maybe becouse I sometimes need to play role of tank healer.

  8. #8

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    My Disc set now officially has 1011 haste, but I have no haste gems. It would be pointless. I'm 1 haste short of the hard GCD cap.

    You know what I do for LK? Switch in my Holy gear with regen trinkets. Problem solved. Every other fight in ICC I use my heavily haste stacked Disc gear. I gain about 250 haste and about 300 SP. If all you're doing is shield spamming every fight then you're an idiot. If you don't know to shield spam LK, then you're also an idiot (or haven't been there yet :P). This has been gone over so many times I've lost count. The only time you'll go OOM as Disc is in a very long fight where you need to shield spam. Any other fight? Nope, you're not going OOM in any realistic amount of time.

    Oh by the way, in proper gear Disc does gem Int again. Not because it's better than haste, but because the playstyle has evolved to output more heals faster and the hard GCD cap can be reached without any gemming.

    Now, since you seem hooked on BT still, allow me to explain something: Every time you cast anything except PW:S and Penance, BT drops. Haste works with Penance well beyond the BT-cap on haste and every 8 seconds you're taking advantage of haste on anything you cast, including PW:S. Fun stuff. Oh and if you're raid spamming PW:S full time then you're screwing up in 11/12 ICC fights. Good job.

  9. #9

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Borrowed time drops when you cast pom, renew, and pain suppression? You need to recheck your facts.

    The only time borrowed time drops is when your casting a non instant spell more than once consecutively. Some people have argued that when you cast flash heal once with borrowed time and then pw shield, that pw shield will not be effected by borrowed time. This is actually incorrect. Don't believe me? Go on your priest right now, remove some haste gear so you have ~300 or less haste. This will allow you to very clearly see the difference between borrowed time GCD and non-borrwed time GCD (assuming your using a visual bar or something to show your GCD). Try testing it now. Cast a few flash heals without borrowed time, look at the gcd, watch how slow it is. Now, cast a pw shield, cast a flash heal, and immediately after cast another pw shield. The GCD on the pw shield will be hasted by borrowed time.

    Nice argument and all, too bad it doesn't work that way.

    (I think I just heard a bunch of luminous ametrines making their way off auction house shelves).

    Anyways I don't wanna give out too much information/secrets or I will have more competition on wmo, so peace

  10. #10

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiduZ
    Borrowed time drops when you cast pom, renew, and pain suppression? You need to recheck your facts.

    The only time borrowed time drops is when your casting a non instant spell more than once consecutively. Some people have argued that when you cast flash heal once with borrowed time and then pw shield, that pw shield will not be effected by borrowed time. This is actually incorrect. Don't believe me? Go on your priest right now, remove some haste gear so you have ~300 or less haste. This will allow you to very clearly see the difference between borrowed time GCD and non-borrwed time GCD (assuming your using a visual bar or something to show your GCD). Try testing it now. Cast a few flash heals without borrowed time, look at the gcd, watch how slow it is. Now, cast a pw shield, cast a flash heal, and immediately after cast another pw shield. The GCD on the pw shield will be hasted by borrowed time.

    Nice argument and all, too bad it doesn't work that way.

    (I think I just heard a bunch of luminous ametrines making their way off auction house shelves).

    Anyways I don't wanna give out too much information/secrets or I will have more competition on wmo, so peace
    Actually, his argument was that you really should not be shield spamming like that all the time, which is what you're stating. Thus BT will not be up 100% of the time, so haste is actually good but not gemmed for.

  11. #11

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Haste is great!

    "You don't need haste with borrowed time!!"

    What if borrowed time drops of and you got no time to shield another target? Oh shi-

    I love my 790ish haste (or more), works really well on LK, festergut, hardmodes and the other hard hitting bosses were ppl will love you for throwing in those greater heals+penance.

  12. #12

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    My Disc set now officially has 1011 haste, but I have no haste gems. It would be pointless. I'm 1 haste short of the hard GCD cap.

    You know what I do for LK? Switch in my Holy gear with regen trinkets. Problem solved. Every other fight in ICC I use my heavily haste stacked Disc gear. I gain about 250 haste and about 300 SP. If all you're doing is shield spamming every fight then you're an idiot. If you don't know to shield spam LK, then you're also an idiot (or haven't been there yet :P). This has been gone over so many times I've lost count. The only time you'll go OOM as Disc is in a very long fight where you need to shield spam. Any other fight? Nope, you're not going OOM in any realistic amount of time.

    Oh by the way, in proper gear Disc does gem Int again. Not because it's better than haste, but because the playstyle has evolved to output more heals faster and the hard GCD cap can be reached without any gemming.

    Now, since you seem hooked on BT still, allow me to explain something: Every time you cast anything except PW:S and Penance, BT drops. Haste works with Penance well beyond the BT-cap on haste and every 8 seconds you're taking advantage of haste on anything you cast, including PW:S. Fun stuff. Oh and if you're raid spamming PW:S full time then you're screwing up in 11/12 ICC fights. Good job.
    Yea, because preventing raid wide damage is a terrible idea as a disc priest.

  13. #13
    Fluffy Kitten Ultima's Avatar
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    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    He's saying it's bad to do that on every fight, every second. Which it is.

    However, correct use such as during Bone Storm, during 1&2 of Festergut, early P3 of Putricide, Queen's storm and so on. It's like a Holy Priest preparing their chain burst or a Druid HoTing the raid before heavy damage is about to strike. If you shield constantly during a fight like....Gunship Battle or Rotface, what good is that?

    Learning when to shield and when to cast is a big part of being a good Disc Priest.
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  14. #14

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    It's an issue of people thinking they're doing better than they are. You can raid shield spam any fight in ICC and logs will freak out and say you're amazing and no one can keep up. You'll get 7-10k HPS on every single fight. The issue is that you'd be exploiting meters, rather than taking advantage of the mechanics to play well.

    Marrowgar: 80%+ of the fight has no AOE and a maximum of 6 good shield targets.
    Deathwhisper: No reason to raid shield at any time unless you have extremely bad interrupters.
    Gunship: No reason to raid shield ever.
    Saurfang: No reason to raid shield ever (post-fix ).
    Festergut: Raid shielding works well on half the fight (0-1 inhales).
    Rotgut: No reason to raid shield unless doing his achievement.
    Putricide: Raid shielding only worthwhile during P3.
    Princes: Raid shielding only worthwhile when Valanar is empowered.
    Blood Queen: Raid shielding only worthwhile after third set of bites and during her air phase.
    Dreamwalker: Raid shielding only worthwhile if you have bad melee DPS.
    Sindragosa: Raid shielding not worthwhile until P3.
    Lich King: LOLRAIDSHIELDNOW.

    ICC fights in general do not favor raid shielding with some exceptions. Others allow it for about a third of the time, some up to half. There is no fight that favors raid shielding as much as Lich King in the entire game and basing your gearing purely on him is silly. Having some regen gear to swap in on him? Great idea. Tailoring your gear for raid shielding in general? Horrible idea. Disc does very well on all of the above fights. Unless you just blindly spam raid shielding, which is what you're required to do if you want to ignore haste.

  15. #15

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    what do you really lose picking up the haste though with current gearing? crit is almost as useless if all you do is shield spam, yeah a crit on glyph but its pretty minimal.

  16. #16

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    I started healing as disc in 3.0 and I NEVER took haste over over SP or Crit. I was always the best healer my guild had (third best on the realm) I saw no reason for haste ever.

  17. #17

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azumel
    I started healing as disc in 3.0 and I NEVER took haste over over SP or Crit. I was always the best healer my guild had (third best on the realm) I saw no reason for haste ever.
    Good for you, but opinion is really useless, especially it is "I am..." type of stuff, because in reality, there are a lot better people out there at healing than you. A guy could be the 100th best healer on his realm and be better at healing than you, comparing yourself to your realm only sucks but I can see why, it is the only source we can actually see.

    The fact still remains that getting haste, while keeping your crit at a decent level(25%-30% holy unbuffed), will be better than any other option available(who wants spi/mp5 in ICC?).

  18. #18

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    It's an issue of people thinking they're doing better than they are. You can raid shield spam any fight in ICC and logs will freak out and say you're amazing and no one can keep up. You'll get 7-10k HPS on every single fight. The issue is that you'd be exploiting meters, rather than taking advantage of the mechanics to play well.

    Marrowgar: 80%+ of the fight has no AOE and a maximum of 6 good shield targets.
    Deathwhisper: No reason to raid shield at any time unless you have extremely bad interrupters.
    Gunship: No reason to raid shield ever.
    Saurfang: No reason to raid shield ever (post-fix ).
    Festergut: Raid shielding works well on half the fight (0-1 inhales).
    Rotgut: No reason to raid shield unless doing his achievement.
    Putricide: Raid shielding only worthwhile during P3.
    Princes: Raid shielding only worthwhile when Valanar is empowered.
    Blood Queen: Raid shielding only worthwhile after third set of bites and during her air phase.
    Dreamwalker: Raid shielding only worthwhile if you have bad melee DPS.
    Sindragosa: Raid shielding not worthwhile until P3.
    Lich King: LOLRAIDSHIELDNOW.

    ICC fights in general do not favor raid shielding with some exceptions. Others allow it for about a third of the time, some up to half. There is no fight that favors raid shielding as much as Lich King in the entire game and basing your gearing purely on him is silly. Having some regen gear to swap in on him? Great idea. Tailoring your gear for raid shielding in general? Horrible idea. Disc does very well on all of the above fights. Unless you just blindly spam raid shielding, which is what you're required to do if you want to ignore haste.
    I'm sorry sir but you are wrong.

  19. #19

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    you get enough haste to get the GCD as low as possible then stack full spell power
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  20. #20

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiduZ
    I'm sorry sir but you are wrong.
    At least he gave out his reason. Yours? If you KNOW you are right and have nothing else to do, please leave this place.

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