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  1. #21

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by kronpas
    At least he gave out his reason. Yours? If you KNOW you are right and have nothing else to do, please leave this place.
    It's because he knows he is wrong that he isn't giving a reason. He knows raid shielding is useless in portions of fights with very inconsistent, or very low raid damage. He also knows that his argument will fall apart if he acknowledges it.

    Or, maybe I'm giving him too much credit. Maybe he actually believes that shield spamming isn't a waste of time when there is no consistent raid damage. I certainly hope not, but it is possible.

  2. #22

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    I stopped believing OP when he suggested spirit as disc priest.
    -----
    I agree that if you R;M you dont need to gem haste. But I do not mind it on gear. Not at all !

    However I find it a bit silly that we have this guy who post a LK kill in here and suddenly needs to teach us all how to play.

    Even though harky comes with well argumented posts one after another - you still say its wrong, just wrong - but i see no argument.

    With no arguement for what you are claiming you might aswell say nothing.

    So what I really would like, would be that OP instead of using his LK SkillZZ as arguement for his massive knowlegde that we obviously are oblivious to. Write a post explaining properly why and maybe show me some numbers (we all like pretty numbers to support our posts ) and I am sure that the discussion would have stayed at disc + haste = fail instead of Tiduz+post+playstyle = fail.

    --
    With that being said I do not think it is necessary since the sole point of this thread was disc gemming haste = fail - But until now everyone that posted seems to agree.

    /endtroll

  3. #23

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    In terms of this lich king comment there is nothing better to opt for than straight Regen as Disc. A) Your PW:S can only absorb 1 infest so you have to refresh anyway. B) your glyph of PW:S doesn't matter if it crits or not when pre shielding players at 100%. C) You're haste doesn't matter unless you switch off onto tanks when Shaman/Paladin get picked up or go into frostmourne room and die. D) you go oom like a mofo spamming shields on infest and shielding p5 for vile spirits so Regen is a huge crutch. Almost any other fight in ICC you have to look at your healers and gem/gear how you feel will have the most outcome and synergy in your raid group.

  4. #24

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    This thread is so useless and meaningless...

    You play disc as a bubble spammer? Then haste is useless... but then crit is useless as well. What do you want to say? Only SP is valuable in 25man? Ok REALLY fascinating contribution for the community.

    People who still think they are skilled putting PW:S on the raid during any types of encounter are just retarded and must probably be bored as hell playing everynight a 1-button priest.

    As Harky explained with strong arguments, only few situations make raid shielding really interesting. For light raid damages, why the heall would you shield everybody? You have raid healers for that... or maybe you just want to top the meters, which is obviously the best way to evaluate healers... oh wait?

    /applause

  5. #25

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    It's an issue of people thinking they're doing better than they are. You can raid shield spam any fight in ICC and logs will freak out and say you're amazing and no one can keep up. You'll get 7-10k HPS on every single fight. The issue is that you'd be exploiting meters, rather than taking advantage of the mechanics to play well.

    Marrowgar: 80%+ of the fight has no AOE and a maximum of 6 good shield targets.
    Deathwhisper: No reason to raid shield at any time unless you have extremely bad interrupters.
    Gunship: No reason to raid shield ever.
    Saurfang: No reason to raid shield ever (post-fix ).
    Festergut: Raid shielding works well on half the fight (0-1 inhales).
    Rotgut: No reason to raid shield unless doing his achievement.
    Putricide: Raid shielding only worthwhile during P3.
    Princes: Raid shielding only worthwhile when Valanar is empowered.
    Blood Queen: Raid shielding only worthwhile after third set of bites and during her air phase.
    Dreamwalker: Raid shielding only worthwhile if you have bad melee DPS.
    Sindragosa: Raid shielding not worthwhile until P3.
    Lich King: LOLRAIDSHIELDNOW.

    ICC fights in general do not favor raid shielding with some exceptions. Others allow it for about a third of the time, some up to half. There is no fight that favors raid shielding as much as Lich King in the entire game and basing your gearing purely on him is silly. Having some regen gear to swap in on him? Great idea. Tailoring your gear for raid shielding in general? Horrible idea. Disc does very well on all of the above fights. Unless you just blindly spam raid shielding, which is what you're required to do if you want to ignore haste.
    You don't get it.
    It ist NOT about senseless Raid Shielding, the Problem is even if just putting up shields which make Sense you will end up with 75% of you Healing done by Shields in some fights ... of course there are also some where it is just about 25% but the funny thing is these are the aoe Encounters where POM jumps like hell, POH gets useful and you gain some Ägis.

    At least he gave out his reason. Yours? If you KNOW you are right and have nothing else to do, please leave this place.
    It's because he knows he is wrong that he isn't giving a reason. He knows raid shielding is useless in portions of fights with very inconsistent, or very low raid damage. He also knows that his argument will fall apart if he acknowledges it.
    no it's because the Poster didn't get the point like i explained above. As a Disc Priest you alway end up with a very lage Amount of Shield absorb on most bosses even if you don't Raidshield.

  6. #26

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by d4rky
    You don't get it.
    It ist NOT about senseless Raid Shielding, the Problem is even if just putting up shields which make Sense you will end up with 75% of you Healing done by Shields in some fights ... of course there are also some where it is just about 25% but the funny thing is these are the aoe Encounters where POM jumps like hell, POH gets useful and you gain some Ägis.
    It's because he knows he is wrong that he isn't giving a reason. He knows raid shielding is useless in portions of fights with very inconsistent, or very low raid damage. He also knows that his argument will fall apart if he acknowledges it.
    no it's because the Poster didn't get the point like i explained above. As a Disc Priest you alway end up with a very lage Amount of Shield absorb on most bosses even if you don't Raidshield.
    Um, what? You haven't posted in this thread, so how come you say you have?

    Of course you're probably going to raid shield, and it will add a lot of absorbs because of it(and yes, up to 75% of your healing), but meters are not the best way to test healers. The OP's argument was that haste is completely useless in 25 mans because all you're doing is raid shielding and having BT up 100% of the time. Harky destroyed that argument.

    And, your last statement is false, because if you do not raid shield, absorbs will only be a small portion of your healing.

    Assuming 25% holy crit unbuffed, and a 5000 heal:
    (5000 * 1.5) = 7500 * 1.3 = 9750 - 7500 = 2250 of a crit is absorbs.

    Out of 100 casts, 25 will crit:
    2250 * 25 = 56250 absorbs
    7500 * 25 = 187500 healing by crit

    Out of 100 casts, 75 will be non crit:
    5000 * 75 = 375000

    (56250 / (187500 + 375000)) * 100 = 10%

    DA accounts for ~10% of any healing you do, if the heal can crit. Meaning you have to raid shield to actually get a very large amount of absorbs.

  7. #27
    Fluffy Kitten Ultima's Avatar
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    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    That number is a bit off, I'm in the higher end of Disc gear, but not the top. I have more like 33.6X% Crit unbuffed. Maxing as much SP/Haste/Crit gear as possible.
    I heal in the Arena
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  8. #28

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    True. High absorb values on a fight mean high PW:S spam, period. On an average ICC25 raid evening, absorb will be somewhere between 45 and 60% of my overall healing. Disc is about knowing when mass shielding is appropriate and when it’s not. Sometime I do shield spam and sometimes not. And this is precisely when it’s not required than haste is really amazingly valuable.

    Festergut is a very good example. During the first 2 phases were 0 and 1 gaz has been eaten by festergut, then raid shielding is of best interest with highest priority on vomiting players. When it comes to 2 or 3 gaz consumption, then disc is useless for keeping DPS alive. Other raid healers would never require any help but then palies do. And what would you do? Tank shield > penance and FH? Ok this is working once but afterwards WS is there.

    So what do you do? FH spam waiting for penance to be up? Of course you will apply inspiration which is nice (but if a restau chaman is there, he could do it as good as you). Of course for each FH crit you will put a small DA. But regarding how hard the tank is spanked, this is almost nothing. In this precise situation, then a high haste makes the difference, definitely. When I do a 19k GH crit with a nice 5.7k DA (our tank is a paladin) I consider my contribution as worthy. Of course I would never pretend I can take care of the tank by myself but at least my healers mate notice my contribution in healing.

    This is what haste in disc is meant for : efficient and fast GH when required, not more, not less. And thus I do not know better tank healing burst than PW:S > penance > GH.

  9. #29

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima
    That number is a bit off, I'm in the higher end of Disc gear, but not the top. I have more like 33.6X% Crit unbuffed. Maxing as much SP/Haste/Crit gear as possible.
    I used 25% unbuffed because it should be the baseline crit every disc priest should have before raiding, but of course it will be higher with buffs and better gear. In ICC gear, it should be between 10% and 15%, depending on RNG.

  10. #30

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by d4rky
    You don't get it.
    It ist NOT about senseless Raid Shielding, the Problem is even if just putting up shields which make Sense you will end up with 75% of you Healing done by Shields in some fights ... of course there are also some where it is just about 25% but the funny thing is these are the aoe Encounters where POM jumps like hell, POH gets useful and you gain some Ägis.
    Here's what you don't get: If 75% of your healing is from shields on most ICC fights then you're doing something wrong. However, stop and think about what 75% of healing from shields would mean. Probably about 10-15% of that is from Divine Aegis, which means only 60-65% is from PW:S. That means you get full benefit from haste for just under half of the fight and partial benefit for the other part of the fight. You're also talking about PoH, a spell with a 3 second cast that even if you're at the GCD cap (1014 haste) and have BT up and are in Blood Lust with full raid buffs is still a 1.23 second cast.

    The thing is you have this backwards. AOE fights are where you do have those 75%+ absorb fights. There is only one fight in ICC with this type of damage; The Lich King. Some others have heavy AOE phases, or mechanics that increase as the fight goes on (Blood Queen), but there is only one pure raid-shielding fight in ICC. What the OP is discussing results from a lack of class knowledge and gearing strategy despite having in game experience. He's then combining that with smoke and mirrors style posts (see; 'I don't want to share any more secrets or I'll have competition.').

    The issue here is that while the premises of his argument are true, his argument itself is invalid. Now, if he had claimed that haste was useless on the Lich King himself there would have been little debate. Haste is in fact useless on that fight. He's jumping to the conclusion that because haste is useless on the Lich King encounter that haste is therefor useless for Disc Priests in 25 man content. To accept that you would need to accept that the Lich King is the only 25 man content worth gearing towards, or that all fights can be approached in the same manner. Both premises are false. To avoid his argument being invalid he left out the false premises and created a fallacious argument. It's sophism if intentional and poor critical thinking if unintentional. It's only compelling because it's controversial, which has little meaning if it is also wrong.

  11. #31

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    You're also talking about PoH, a spell with a 3 second cast that even if you're at the GCD cap (1014 haste) and have BT up and are in Blood Lust with full raid buffs is still a 1.23 second cast.
    This is why haste caps are never really haste caps... this illustrates some value to haste past this so called cap... remember a cap is defined as a level to which 1 point extra gives no benefit. Clearly not the case and clearly not a cap... might be accurate to suggest haste has a diminished effect past this point but thats hardly a cap.

  12. #32

    Re: Disc haste is useless in 25 man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    This is why haste caps are never really haste caps... this illustrates some value to haste past this so called cap... remember a cap is defined as a level to which 1 point extra gives no benefit. Clearly not the case and clearly not a cap... might be accurate to suggest haste has a diminished effect past this point but thats hardly a cap.
    Yeah it's true.

    I think we have talked enough about this topic don't you?

    omg haste and disc is a really frequent thread... always the same by the way : some shout 'haste is crap you should be shielding always' with answers from the opposite site saying 'if you're juste PW:S spamming whatever fight you are in then you fail. And when you're not shielding then you don't have BT' etc etc. Like and endless story... be prepared for the next one in some days ;D

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