Glyphs: Kill Shot vs Chimera Shot

[Adyssa]

Kripparrian, you bring up some good points, a couple of which I have comments on. Note that I'm not trying to pick a fight. You brought up issues I hadn't thought of previously and I just want to insert some further points.

When doing the 10.5 second versus 10 second rotation, I don't think you emphasized enough that this depends on haste procs. With no haste on gear, Steady is ~1.7 cast speed. That extra .2 sec adds .8 seconds, filling in the 1 second of nothing you mention and leaving only a .2 second gap, and that is not considering any latency. That really muddles the rest of what you said about that, because anyone who does CS, AS, SSx4 will only have 1 second of nothing if they have a haste proc up. I have power auras displaying my improved AotH and I can attest to it not being up 100%. So, you'd really want to alternate depending on haste procs and not just default to one or the other. If you set the spreadsheet "wait time" to less than .5 seconds, you can get this rotation as a result. When haste proc is up, the rotation test uses 5 steadys, and overall DPS is increased.

Another thing I'd like to comment on is adds in a fight and how they affect Kill Shot glyph. You said it lessens the value, but I disagree. It should be that it varies. In a one add example, it lessens the value (obviously it doesn't change the amount of KS you do). In a multiple add example, such as Deathwhisper, you can often use Kill Shot on adds more often than you normally would due to different adds all over the room being at different HP levels.

I'd also like to note that earlier in this thread I created an example that favored Chimera Shot but showed Kill Shot being, at the very least, equal. I gave Kill Shot 45 seconds out of a 300 second fight. That's 15% of the fight, showing that the 20% to 0% phase is faster. Over 300 seconds, the Chimera Glyph grants 3.3 extra Chimeras. Over 45 seconds, the KS glyph grants 2 extra Kill Shots. In a single target fight, you really should only compare number of Kill Shots gained versus number of Chimeras gained, and 2 versus 3.3 is pretty close to even considering the CS glyph requires perfect rotations the entire fight to get full benefit while KS glyph requires it for only the last 45 seconds to get its full benefit.

Also, using Readiness doesn't decrease the value of Kill Shot, imo. As I just said, you should compare how many shots you gain with the glyph. Even if you reset it with readiness, the amount of shots gained does not change (or is unlikely to). If the glyph is going to allow me to get off 2 extra Kill Shots, then resetting it will only move the cooldown forward by 1.5 seconds, which is more likely than not going to leave the resulting ADDITIONAL Kill Shots added by the glyph the same. They become a smaller percentage of the total Kill Shots, but 5 instead of 3 is two more just the same that 6 instead of 4 is two more.

[ninoffmaniak]

when you have imp aspect of the hawk proc going, all your shots, including steady are on global cast time 1.5 sec. The uptime on hawk proc is 50-55% on most encounters.

with chimera shot glyph your rotation will look like this:
CS AS SS SS SS SS CS SS AS SS SS SS CS SS SS AS SS SS CS SS SS SS AS SS CS SS SS SS SS AS CS SS SS SS SS SS REPEAT SETS (CS rotation time = 9 seconds)

so as you say hawk proc is 50% so you are menage to keep your "perfect rotation" only 50% ot time and for rest of time you have stedy on 1.7 and you shoting chimeras 9.8 or 10 s anyway so actuly chiera worth half of your calcualtions + hero benefit perfect rotation so let say 60% ot time you can keep your perfect rotation

+ kill shot gliph all minuses you show for it is actually for farm raids and toping meters but who care for thet anyway I personaly wuld rather take dps incrise on last 20% on fights like sindragosa sarufang or profesor where dps in 1. phase dont meen anything or some progres fights when ppl die close to end and you actuly spend more time in 20% then in other phases not like all play in "perfect gild"

[Drijen]

I don't think so, Steady and Serpent are required, the only debate is the third glyph shot, currently for me, Trueshot aura shows the best.

Yeah, I looked again earlier and realized I misunderstood your initial claim. I read it as taking true shot+aimed glyphs instead of true shot->increased Aimed priority. Once I figured out that little mental slip-up the rest fell into place.

[Kripparrian]

@adyssa

- Most of the time a haste proc occurs only on part of most 9 second cycles, so I dont think it makes much sense to compare both possibilities when its usually somewhere in between. Changing the wait time on the spreadsheet to any value other than zero either decreases dps or keeps it exactly the same for me. Im not sure how you are getting those results.

- constant adds during a fight will still give it less value. It is only equal value if you are using it on cooldown while dpsing adds that are sundered which is very unlikely.

- yes it can be difficult to have a perfect rotation with CS glyph, and that is what holds it back for some people. These glyphs are somewhat close in most situations, so having a simple scenario where you just compare shot count isnt very conclusive.

- your statement about readiness is correct on its own. But my statement was in regard to the value given by the spreadsheet. because the spreadsheet does not use kill shot readiness kill shot, instead it just uses the abilities on cooldown. If the spreadsheet used this trick, the dps value of the gylph would then be lower.

@ ninoffmaniak

- on some fights it is absolutely better to use kill shot because of the phase mechanics like you described. but there are more fights where these mechanics do not take place. The solution is just to switch and switch back

[ninoffmaniak]

- your statement about readiness is correct on its own. But my statement was in regard to the value given by the spreadsheet. because the spreadsheet does not use kill shot readiness kill shot, instead it just uses the abilities on cooldown. If the spreadsheet used this trick, the dps value of the gylph would then be lower.

put rotation prio on readiness under kill shot so spreadsheet will use kill shot then readiness then kill shot
but i usualy using chimera aimed kill readiness kill chimera aimed so not only kill shot

@ ninoffmaniak

- on some fights it is absolutely better to use kill shot because of the phase mechanics like you described. but there are more fights where these mechanics do not take place. The solution is just to switch and switch back

well for me (i play on rilly bad server thet have big server lag most of time) and even with perfect latency benefit for some fights where chimera is little better is less then fights where kill shot is lot better so i stay with kill shot

all respect to you but all suld use brain and play one thet work best for him
chimera working for you and numbers prove it but you are not in position as other hunters

[Apetk]

may be offtopic) just a question how good is hawk vs chim/ks if you got rly bad haste?

usually you shouldn't specifically focus on haste if you got 5/5 Improved Aspect of the Hawk which most MM hunters should have, but even then decked in 251/264 gear I found it to be better than Glyph of Chimera and in several cases Glyph of Kill shot(sometimes I swap between the two given the amount of movement or length of the execute range)

[pomop]

I highly advise against glyph of chimera shot. If you have the perfect rotation and perfect latency (Which nobody has) then in a given raid boss fight, you will get 2 extra chimera shots. (Every 2.5 minutes you get an eleventh chimera shot.)

I dont know much about the KS glyph, i just know the CS glyph is not that great. In regular instances and farm raids, you get 0-1 extra chimera shot.

[markovicious]

Chimera shots glyph gives you 1 extra CS every 10 shots, or, in the frame of 100 seconds, where you used to get 10 CS's off, now you get off 11. Most fights are 4-6 minutes long, meaning CS glyph gives you maybe an extra 2 or 3 CS's.

Something most people don't think about is ensuring that they fix the time spent in <20% on the spreadsheets. Since we do normal Festergut in under 4 mins, I use 4 minutes as my time, (240s - 48s theoretically <20%). Considering we're not the only class with an execute, it's always the fastest portion of the fight (obviously with some exceptions). I put my <20% time at 25s in the spreadsheets and it gives a much more accurate portrayal of the glyph's worth.

[Lysah]

Something most people don't think about is ensuring that they fix the time spent in <20% on the spreadsheets. Since we do normal Festergut in under 4 mins, I use 4 minutes as my time, (240s - 48s theoretically <20%). Considering we're not the only class with an execute, it's always the fastest portion of the fight (obviously with some exceptions). I put my <20% time at 25s in the spreadsheets and it gives a much more accurate portrayal of the glyph's worth.

Keep in mind heroism and other class cooldown usage, too. We blow heroism at the start of the fight, and because of that, most other players in the raid blow their cooldowns at the start of the fight as well. 100-70% is way faster than 20-0% for us. This is even more true for fights like rotface, where DPS gets slowed down as the fight progresses.

[Adyssa]

@adyssa

- Most of the time a haste proc occurs only on part of most 9 second cycles, so I dont think it makes much sense to compare both possibilities when its usually somewhere in between. Changing the wait time on the spreadsheet to any value other than zero either decreases dps or keeps it exactly the same for me. Im not sure how you are getting those results.

That doesn't make any sense. If you leave the wait time at 0, then it would use a steady shot even if Chimera would be ready in .1 seconds. You're probably not actually clicking the test rotation button. When you change the wait time, click in an empty box first, THEN click the test rotation button. Moving from 000 to 500 moves mine from 10502 to 10666.

- constant adds during a fight will still give it less value. It is only equal value if you are using it on cooldown while dpsing adds that are sundered which is very unlikely.

I can't even make sense of what you said. All I am saying is that it is possible that the glyph would allow for more Kill Shots to go out during add phases under the right conditions. I'll give an example. Three adds pop up and they are focused 1 by 1. I Kill Shot all of them because my Kill Shot is ready right as they enter 20% hp every time. A hunter without the glyph would use only 2 Kill Shots. This point can not really be argued. You CAN say that might not be a great bonus, but you can't say the glyph did nothing either.

- yes it can be difficult to have a perfect rotation with CS glyph, and that is what holds it back for some people. These glyphs are somewhat close in most situations, so having a simple scenario where you just compare shot count isnt very conclusive.

I didn't simply compare shot count. I gave Chimera a HUGE benefit of the doubt. I gave it EVERY extra shot, even though it is impossible to use it every 9 seconds on the dot every time. THEN I gave Kill Shot fewer by reducing the time below 20% considerably. It still tends towards Kill Shot being better simply because it's far more likely to extract said benefit from the Kill Shot glyph.

- your statement about readiness is correct on its own. But my statement was in regard to the value given by the spreadsheet. because the spreadsheet does not use kill shot readiness kill shot, instead it just uses the abilities on cooldown. If the spreadsheet used this trick, the dps value of the gylph would then be lower.

The DPS it gives is derived 100% from the rotation test if you actually use it. In fact, that is precisely to what I was referring when I was talking about pushing the cooldown forward, which is all readiness would do. The bottom of my rotation test says Kill Shot, Steady x4, then Chimera. If it had used readiness later to reset Kill Shot, it would say Kill Shot, Steady x3, Chimera. It would drop a Steady Shot and add a Kill Shot, neither of which affects the addition the glyph made.

[Kripparrian]

"I can't even make sense of what you said. All I am saying is that it is possible that the glyph would allow for more Kill Shots to go out during add phases under the right conditions. I'll give an example. Three adds pop up and they are focused 1 by 1. I Kill Shot all of them because my Kill Shot is ready right as they enter 20% hp every time. A hunter without the glyph would use only 2 Kill Shots. This point can not really be argued. You CAN say that might not be a great bonus, but you can't say the glyph did nothing either."

right so 3 instead of 2 . lets use this. The spreadsheet values the glyph based on single target dps. So instead of adds lets say you were attacking the boss. 2 kill shots unglyhped 30 second time, 3 kill shots glyhped 27 seconds time. Since 30>27 , you are not achieving the dps value given by the spreadsheet for kill glyph during this (and all other) add situations.

if that doesnt make sense to you, here the simplest example I can give you:

there is 1 add early into some particular boss fight. the add stays 19%-1% for a duration of 5 seconds
the boss stays 19-1% for 135 seconds (totally even for with and without glyph)

without glyph 1 kill shot on add, 9 kill shots on boss
with glyph 1 kill shot on add, 15 kill shots on boss

the kill shot count on the boss is independent. Since the kill shot count on the add is 1 regardless of glyph, the value of the glyph for the add in this particular case is 0 (rather than more than zero which is estimated by the spreadsheet). This almost always devalues the glyph in any boss encounters involving adds.



"The DPS it gives is derived 100% from the rotation test if you actually use it. In fact, that is precisely to what I was referring when I was talking about pushing the cooldown forward, which is all readiness would do. The bottom of my rotation test says Kill Shot, Steady x4, then Chimera. If it had used readiness later to reset Kill Shot, it would say Kill Shot, Steady x3, Chimera. It would drop a Steady Shot and add a Kill Shot, neither of which affects the addition the glyph made."

Readiness makes the CD of one kill shot meaningless, that means that when glyphed for kill shot, for one of the kill shots during the encounter, you may as well not have the glyph, ie no value

no glyph vs glyph
9 sec vs 15 sec CD

boss stays 19-1 for 50 seconds (very real example)

modeled by the spreadsheet:
with no glyph: kill, kill, kill, kill
with glyph: kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill

4 : 6
50% more kill shots

during real encounter:
with no glyph: kill , readiness, kill, kill, kill, kill
with glyph: kill, readiness, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill , kill

5 : 7
40% more kill shots

de-value = ~20%



what Ive been saying is; the spreadsheet models glyphs a particular way to measure dps gain/loss when compared to other glyphs. We base our decisions based on these values, but because many glyphs are so close, we need to look at what factors affect the value of each glyph to make our final decision.

as it stands, the kill shot glyph is somewhat close to chimera/hawk, but as I have just shown you guys, that value is extremely inflated -- and it is why I choose to not use this glyph in most cases

[Adyssa]

"I can't even make sense of what you said. All I am saying is that it is possible that the glyph would allow for more Kill Shots to go out during add phases under the right conditions. I'll give an example. Three adds pop up and they are focused 1 by 1. I Kill Shot all of them because my Kill Shot is ready right as they enter 20% hp every time. A hunter without the glyph would use only 2 Kill Shots. This point can not really be argued. You CAN say that might not be a great bonus, but you can't say the glyph did nothing either."

right so 3 instead of 2 . lets use this. The spreadsheet values the glyph based on single target dps. So instead of adds lets say you were attacking the boss. 2 kill shots unglyhped 30 second time, 3 kill shots glyhped 27 seconds time. Since 30>27 , you are not achieving the dps value given by the spreadsheet for kill glyph during this (and all other) add situations.

if that doesnt make sense to you, here the simplest example I can give you:

Gonna have to stop you right here, because this is NOT what I said "made no sense." I quoted something when I said that and you did not respond to that and you're about to give an example I very clearly understand.

You think I am wrong and are unwilling to give me the benefit of the doubt. I think I've figured out why you think what you think and I will show you precisely what I am saying as well as hopefully make it clear that you are wrong about constant adds devaluing the Glyph.

Here's your example:

there is 1 add early into some particular boss fight. the add stays 19%-1% for a duration of 5 seconds
the boss stays 19-1% for 135 seconds (totally even for with and without glyph)

without glyph 1 kill shot on add, 9 kill shots on boss
with glyph 1 kill shot on add, 15 kill shots on boss

the kill shot count on the boss is independent. Since the kill shot count on the add is 1 regardless of glyph, the value of the glyph for the add in this particular case is 0 (rather than more than zero which is estimated by the spreadsheet). This almost always devalues the glyph in any boss encounters involving adds.

What if there are two adds? This is my point. You say the add stays in 19-1% range for 5 seconds, that's fine. What if both adds stay in that range for 5 seconds? Let's say that two adds come out and we focus one down. It hits 19% and I use Kill Shot, it dies 4 seconds later. We switch to the other add, who has been taking cleave damage and other aoe effects, he enters 19-1% range 5 seconds after the first add dies. This is 9 seconds after I used Kill Shot on the first add. I use Kill Shot a second time. The add dies in 4 more seconds, two seconds before an unglyphed Hunter can shoot his second Kill Shot. In my scenario, we get:

without glyph: 1 kill shot on adds, 9 kill shots on boss
with glyph: 2 kill shots on adds, 15 kill shots on boss

This should show you that the MORE adds there are, the MORE likely it is the hunter with the glyph will get even more Kill Shots in because there are more and more chances of a mob being at 19-1% hp right as the cooldown comes up. Every time the glyph allows an extra Kill Shot, it's extra DPS. In fact, you seem to think that this devalues the glyph since the spreadsheet models single target DPS. It is actually the opposite. This ADDS value. Because the spreadsheet is not attempting to account for damage done to adds, any extra damage you get on a heavy add fight from this glyph would increase its value. If you never get any extra Kill Shots in during add phases, it doesn't decrease the value the spreadsheet gives it, it just doesn't increase it.

"The DPS it gives is derived 100% from the rotation test if you actually use it. In fact, that is precisely to what I was referring when I was talking about pushing the cooldown forward, which is all readiness would do. The bottom of my rotation test says Kill Shot, Steady x4, then Chimera. If it had used readiness later to reset Kill Shot, it would say Kill Shot, Steady x3, Chimera. It would drop a Steady Shot and add a Kill Shot, neither of which affects the addition the glyph made."

Readiness makes the CD of one kill shot meaningless, that means that when glyphed for kill shot, for one of the kill shots during the encounter, you may as well not have the glyph, ie no value

no glyph vs glyph
9 sec vs 15 sec CD

boss stays 19-1 for 50 seconds (very real example)

modeled by the spreadsheet:
with no glyph: kill, kill, kill, kill
with glyph: kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill

4 : 6
50% more kill shots

during real encounter:
with no glyph: kill , readiness, kill, kill, kill, kill
with glyph: kill, readiness, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill , kill

5 : 7
40% more kill shots

de-value = ~20%

It makes no sense whatsoever to use percentages to gauge the value the way you have. What you are imagining is the the DPS contribution of Readiness being subtracted from the glyph's value, thus "devaluing" it. This is false reasoning, and I will show you why. Take an example of 25 seconds of 19-1%.

No glyph and no readiness:
0 seconds
15 seconds

With glyph:
0 seconds
9 seconds
18 seconds
The glyph adds 1 Kill Shot

With readiness:
0 seconds
3 seconds
18 seconds
Readiness adds 1 Kill Shot

With both:
0 seconds
3 seconds
12 seconds
21 seconds
Readiness adds 1 and glyph adds 1.

In none of these cases does the glyph add a different amount of DPS. If your average Kill Shot is 20,000 damage and your average Steady is 10,000 damage, then the glyph added 10,000 damage by replacing a Steady Shot. Divide that by the total time of the fight, and you have a DPS number.

This is completely disconnected from Readiness use. When comparing glyphs, you should compare, objectively, the DPS that ONLY the glyph adds. Since DPS is just damage/time, all you have to figure out is "how much damage does using this glyph add?"

When you ask "How much damage does this glyph add if I use Readiness to reset the Kill Shot cooldown?" the answer is the same in most cases.

what Ive been saying is; the spreadsheet models glyphs a particular way to measure dps gain/loss when compared to other glyphs. We base our decisions based on these values, but because many glyphs are so close, we need to look at what factors affect the value of each glyph to make our final decision.

as it stands, the kill shot glyph is somewhat close to chimera/hawk, but as I have just shown you guys, that value is extremely inflated -- and it is why I choose to not use this glyph in most cases

It simply applies the cooldown reduction to the ability and then runs the shot rotation. This is as close to reality as possible. If by "particular way" you mean as a single target DPS fight, then I suppose that is correct.

If anything, the spreadsheet favors Chimera. In most real world fights, extracting value from a one second cooldown reduction, given latency, reaction time, haste levels, etc., is nearly impossible, let alone sustainable through an entire 6 minute fight. The spreadsheet, on the other hand, will do a perfect rotation.

To get full value from the Kill Shot glyph, it is very simple. Keep it on cooldown for the last 20% of hp of the boss, and you're mimicking the spreadsheet's usage.

[Kripparrian]

I thought about it some and youre right about readiness not affecting the glyph in any significant way. your example doesnt really show that but regardless...

kill shot is almost always devalued on adds though. The only scenario where kill shot glyph has increased value is the one you described in your example, where you get to kill shot in the 9-14 second window a second time. This is frankly not very likely at all. Any more or less time devalues the glyph

[Deleted]

most hunters go for Kill Shot, though i've seen some very good dps come out of Chimera Shot, i'm not asking for your personal opinion, does anybody have any numbers to prove if one is better then the other?

Kill shot is a DPS increase compared to Chimera shot glyph.

[Infs]

Kill shot is a DPS increase compared to Chimera shot glyph.

This guy wins the thread!


Lol...

[Antisocial]

All the hard bosses in ICC HC favours kill shot. BQ (well she's not really hard, but atleast she has tries) has the heavy end of your DPS in the end of the fight, so the execute phase gets more important. Putricide is a DPS race the last 35% and sindragosa greatly favours instant abilities with all the moving and camping behind blocks.

Haven't tried Arthas 25 HC but I'd wager getting two killshots of on Valks is better than the DPS increase from any other glyph aswell.

//Eydes

[Lysah]

All the hard bosses in ICC HC favours kill shot. BQ (well she's not really hard, but atleast she has tries) has the heavy end of your DPS in the end of the fight, so the execute phase gets more important. Putricide is a DPS race the last 35% and sindragosa greatly favours instant abilities with all the moving and camping behind blocks.

Haven't tried Arthas 25 HC but I'd wager getting two killshots of on Valks is better than the DPS increase from any other glyph aswell.

//Eydes

The problem comes from comparing KS to CS, which is also an instant cast, and also does a substantial amount of damage. KS gives a much higher boost to your KS damage, but CS does more damage overall, and the glyph is effective from the beginning of the fight. It is this reason that the advantage one glyph has over the other is situational at best, and a true "min/maxer" would keep both glyphs in his bags for switching out between bosses.

[Antisocial]

I did specify hard bosses, for instance, on sindragose HC, the last phase is the only phase where your steadyshots are limited, and due the fact that KS glyph is better than CS in execute range, and that increased movement favours KS glyph even more. My point is basically that gameplay mechanics makes patchwerk glyphs useless on very hard ICC bosses, simple as. Sure if your guild repeatedly wipes on festergut, rotface or saurfang heroic on annoyingly low percentages you should consider swapping them, but for all effects and purposes KS glyph is the glyph you want to use.

[Kripparrian]

kill shot glyph for ICC/heroic:

marrowgar, small devalue from bone spikes
deathwhisper, small devalue from adds
gunship, lol
saurfang, good for second phase
festergut, neutral
rotface, neutral
putricide, good for third phase
princes, neutral
lanathel, devalue from short sub 20%
dreamwalker, devalue from adds
sindragosa, increased value from long sub 20%
lich king, extreme devalue

[Antisocial]

Good point about Lich king, with an enrage as tight as his the neglible bonus you get to valkyrs won't cut it (if valk DPS is a prob you probably wont get him down anyways with his HP...)

also, for fester and rotface it's probably slightly better, but I suppose thats inhereted from being neutral since it's worse off in the first place. (for the record I'm going KS since there's a higher chance I get a freak streak of luck for WMO whoring!!)