Marrowgar

[Grizzengoo]

This is actually about Marrowgar in ICC and the two worms... Dreadscale and Acidmaul or whatever their names are in ToC10/25.

I'm an affliction lock and I'm kinda tired of tanks yelling at me to watch my aggro when the bosses reset... With Marrowgar, threat is reset after the spikes, when I still have a number of DoT's on him, while Dreadscale goes underground for a few seconds, leaving my dots the only thing hurting him. In both examples, I out-aggro the tanks, since the tanks can't do anything. Then I get nuked by the boss and have to deal with a tank saying, "lt me git aggro b4 u attack!!11!!!1"

Any ideas to avoid this... other than not going?

[pilch]

Make sure hunters/rogues are MD/tricks right when bone storm ends, then your tanks won't have any issues with threat.

[Renotarshil]

Your tanks should be more proactive then when Im tanking my warrior and they go into their movement induced effects example bonestorm and burrowing I always chase them around so that when they stop spinning or pop up im right there ready to beat on them. So tell your tanks to turn their brains on.

[Stieger23]

You posted this in the warlock forum. I guess the only answer you wanted was "your tanks suck."

Look, warlocks already have threat problems. When I'm tanking it's not uncommon to have a good warlock climbing up my ass in threat while the next highest person (also doing great dps) is at less than a quarter of my threat. Yes, tanks should taunt at the transition and close the distance, but remember that all that does is give them instantaneous threat parity plus a 3 second fixate. But if it takes a DK 1 second to close the distance and apply a second disease, then 1 GCD before I can start using major threat generating abilities that pretty much means that I get 1 real "big" threat generating attack before the fixate wears off in the time where a warlock can cast 3 more spells (plus already ticking dots). Since we were equal at the start of the taunt, at best I'm going to be barely ahead... and at worst I'll be in danger of losing threat.

We are all constrained by the limits of our classes. Warlocks are a very threaty class. DK tanks have no on-demand bomb threat. In that case the L2P issue is yours. Maybe if you're running with a warrior who can open with charge, shield slam, devastate, revenge pretty much on-demand after the transition you don't need to worry, but there are situations where you have to be more responsible.

[Grimlok]

like other said in wrath you should not have to slow down not to pull agro. for marrowgar and the worm taunt and giving tank 1-2 second should be enough to not pull agro if they have minimum raid skills.

you have soul shatter in emergency but you should rarely have to use it.

tell your tank to STFU and taunt at the right time. If he want to do hardmode in his lifetime he will request every bit of dmg from his dps.

[zkreso]

I've been gibbed by Marrowgar a couple of times. The best suggestion is to stay away from him and stop casting as soon as he drops aggro. And keep a finger on that soul shatter button. But really, if you're right under him when he drops aggro you will usually die.

edit: don't know about the worms, never had any problems there

[Kreth]

I agree with Stieger. Perhaps your tanks need to be quicker on the ball, but at the end of the day, the buck stops with you to not pull aggro and die. Don't be myopic about this. Be a good raider. You succeed as a team or fail as a team.

You posted this in the warlock forum. I guess the only answer you wanted was "your tanks suck."

Look, warlocks already have threat problems. When I'm tanking it's not uncommon to have a good warlock climbing up my ass in threat while the next highest person (also doing great dps) is at less than a quarter of my threat. Yes, tanks should taunt at the transition and close the distance, but remember that all that does is give them instantaneous threat parity plus a 3 second fixate. But if it takes a DK 1 second to close the distance and apply a second disease, then 1 GCD before I can start using major threat generating abilities that pretty much means that I get 1 real "big" threat generating attack before the fixate wears off in the time where a warlock can cast 3 more spells (plus already ticking dots). Since we were equal at the start of the taunt, at best I'm going to be barely ahead... and at worst I'll be in danger of losing threat.

We are all constrained by the limits of our classes. Warlocks are a very threaty class. DK tanks have no on-demand bomb threat. In that case the L2P issue is yours. Maybe if you're running with a warrior who can open with charge, shield slam, devastate, revenge pretty much on-demand after the transition you don't need to worry, but there are situations where you have to be more responsible.

[Grizzengoo]

You posted this in the warlock forum. I guess the only answer you wanted was "your tanks suck."

Look, warlocks already have threat problems. When I'm tanking it's not uncommon to have a good warlock climbing up my ass in threat while the next highest person (also doing great dps) is at less than a quarter of my threat. Yes, tanks should taunt at the transition and close the distance, but remember that all that does is give them instantaneous threat parity plus a 3 second fixate. But if it takes a DK 1 second to close the distance and apply a second disease, then 1 GCD before I can start using major threat generating abilities that pretty much means that I get 1 real "big" threat generating attack before the fixate wears off in the time where a warlock can cast 3 more spells (plus already ticking dots). Since we were equal at the start of the taunt, at best I'm going to be barely ahead... and at worst I'll be in danger of losing threat.

We are all constrained by the limits of our classes. Warlocks are a very threaty class. DK tanks have no on-demand bomb threat. In that case the L2P issue is yours. Maybe if you're running with a warrior who can open with charge, shield slam, devastate, revenge pretty much on-demand after the transition you don't need to worry, but there are situations where you have to be more responsible.

I am well aware of where I posted this: where other affliction locks would (theoretically) see it and let me know if there is something I can watch out for or do to make sure my dots aren't causing me to get killed. Your trolling sucks, go back to the DK forums.

Edit for post above also, because both of you seem to have overlooked me pointing out that I am affliction and have Dots. The threat is already there, I'm not re-applying threat too quickly.

[Warlocomotif]

@ the DK: Does your guild only have DK tanks? PS. Deathcoil + Icy Touch is atleast 2, possibly 3 ranged attacks before you reach him. You could even throw in a death and decay- and you should try to have your diseases running through-out the bonestorm. Now don't get me wrong, DK burst threat does suck horribly- but like I said, unless you're tanking it with only 2 DK's, that shouldn't be a problem.

@ the Warlock- Try not be in marrowgar's melee range when he finished his bone storm. You can still cast spells on him from nearly all the way across the room.

[Goatonlb]

I see your point, but would then have to agree with some of the posters. Since maybe the very first week, when I wasn't even affliction, I have not pulled aggro on Marrowgar. DoTs should NOT make the boss stick to you.

Key tips - like mentioned, stay away from him. If you're 30 yards away when the transition happens, he's got a long way to go before someone else takes over in threat. At this time you're also probabaly moving TOWARDS the boss to get back on his ass (assuming you stack). While moving, the only extra threat I'm causing it the occasional Nightfall proc, because I'll try to never let my DoT's drop off. Once a tank has him for 2+ seconds, if you pull off again then the tank needs to rethink their threat management, or you popped hero and got 2 nightfall procs while running in. That has been a problem occasionally, where we pop hero right after getting back on him, and my threat jumps pretty quickly - that's when you use Soul Shatter.

If you're worried about threat as you run back in, Lifetap and hold the Nightfall proc till he's got more threat. If you LT as you run back in, you won't have to do it when you could be casting from his ass, and you were less likely to pull the boss as the tank re-established himself.

If you've got the boss mechanics down pact, and you're not worried about where you stand/moving during bonestorm, then position yourself behind the tank from the bosses' LoS. If anything this'll help bring the boss towards the tank (just don't run through him back to his ass for fear of getting cleaved).

There isn't a whole lot to say on the subject other than DoT's shouldn't pull aggro alone. It's like on Deathwhisper when she transitions - the tanks should be able to pick her up without you letting your DoTs fall off when her sheild goes down. The only thing I could suggest is holding the nightfall procs, and Lifetapping instead of casting SBolt so you're not totally wasting time waiting for the tanks - which you shouldn't have to do anyways.

[PurechaosSK]

Get the aggro reducing talents if you dont have them. I do around 8-9k dps i think and i dont ever pull aggro.... the only lock that did have a problem was the one that didnt get the talents

[Stieger23]

@ the DK: Does your guild only have DK tanks? PS. Deathcoil + Icy Touch is atleast 2, possibly 3 ranged attacks before you reach him. You could even throw in a death and decay- and you should try to have your diseases running through-out the bonestorm. Now don't get me wrong, DK burst threat does suck horribly- but like I said, unless you're tanking it with only 2 DK's, that shouldn't be a problem.

You're right, we don't run with 2 DK tanks. I'm just pointing out that classes each have unique limitations. I'm sorry, but Warlocks are threat-limited. If the OP can't handle that he's going to keep dying. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that his pre-applied dots alone are causing threat problems. If his guild has had any success in ICC at all the tanking has to be better than that.

Re: your "advice"

1) Icy touch should already be up through bone storm. It does bad damage, but the disease is what's important.
2) blowing all your RP on DC prevents you from using your #1 threat ability: RS (which can give upwards of 30k threat with 1 attack, compared to about 3k from a DC)
3) DND isn't bomb threat, costs half our runes and only does ~1200 tps. A normal DK rotation gives waaay more than twice that much threat (or else they shouldn't be tanking). It's a bad use of runes single target.

[harky]

Marrowgar: Your fault, 100%. Stop being a baby and learn when to lay off enough for the pickup. He spins randomly and tanks can very easily be out of position through no fault of their own, you getting immediate aggro complicates that further and is most likely causing positioning issues and potentially deaths. Is an extra hundred or two DPS worth dying and doing no DPS for the rest of the fight, or killing someone else? If so you don't deserve to raid.

Worms: Tanks need to shape up. They come out in easily predictable locations. I've never seen any tanks with this problem.

[Dhurn]

Any tank that can't pick up marrowgar after a spin is pretty terrible or likely lags due to annoying ass fires. If they had a timer, they can very easily taunt with 1 second left on bonestorm duration, shieldslam/mangle/whatever shortly after, and magically the boss is on them! I do this on my warrior and Druid every week, never fails. If they're lagging though, which is pretty common for marrowgar, someone else may need to step into the mt role for that particular fight.

[DocQuantum]

It appears that, when he finishes his spin, Marrowgar resets aggro - which means your DoTs are already ticking away happily: in effect, you start out ahead of the tank.

Solution:

First spin, maintain DoTs like normal; soulshatter right after the spin ends. Any competent tank should be able to pick it up and hold it. Give 'em a second or two then go back to your normal rotation: your DPS won't suffer too much, and your threat should be fine.

Second spin, let your DoTs drop off (don't refresh 'em). Just spam Shadowbolt. You'll have zero threat when the storm finishes, and the tanks won't have a problem. Then continue as normal. Again, DPS doesn't suffer TOO badly, and threat is fine.

Third spin... shouldn't occur: Marrowgar should be dead. If he isn't, treat it as the second spin; rinse, wash, repeat.

[PurechaosSK]

It appears that, when he finishes his spin, Marrowgar resets aggro - which means your DoTs are already ticking away happily: in effect, you start out ahead of the tank.

Solution:

First spin, maintain DoTs like normal; soulshatter right after the spin ends. Any competent tank should be able to pick it up and hold it. Give 'em a second or two then go back to your normal rotation: your DPS won't suffer too much, and your threat should be fine.

Second spin, let your DoTs drop off (don't refresh 'em). Just spam Shadowbolt. You'll have zero threat when the storm finishes, and the tanks won't have a problem. Then continue as normal. Again, DPS doesn't suffer TOO badly, and threat is fine.

Third spin... shouldn't occur: Marrowgar should be dead. If he isn't, treat it as the second spin; rinse, wash, repeat.

This, dont refresh, just SB/Haunt during the phase.

[Æiou]

You're right, we don't run with 2 DK tanks. I'm just pointing out that classes each have unique limitations. I'm sorry, but Warlocks are threat-limited. If the OP can't handle that he's going to keep dying. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that his pre-applied dots alone are causing threat problems. If his guild has had any success in ICC at all the tanking has to be better than that.

Re: your "advice"

1) Icy touch should already be up through bone storm. It does bad damage, but the disease is what's important.
2) blowing all your RP on DC prevents you from using your #1 threat ability: RS (which can give upwards of 30k threat with 1 attack, compared to about 3k from a DC)
3) DND isn't bomb threat, costs half our runes and only does ~1200 tps. A normal DK rotation gives waaay more than twice that much threat (or else they shouldn't be tanking). It's a bad use of runes single target.

You also forgot to mention in your first post, DK's have 2 taunts. DG still counts as a taunt regardless of them being pulled in. That big "Immune" message is the drag being resisted.

So in theory, you can DG > IT > Dark Command on the way to the boss.

To the OP, Soul Shatter if your dot's are still up, and use SB/Haunt.

[harky]

Any tank that can't pick up marrowgar after a spin is pretty terrible or likely lags due to annoying ass fires. If they had a timer, they can very easily taunt with 1 second left on bonestorm duration, shieldslam/mangle/whatever shortly after, and magically the boss is on them! I do this on my warrior and Druid every week, never fails. If they're lagging though, which is pretty common for marrowgar, someone else may need to step into the mt role for that particular fight.

Tanks spread out behind his starting point, one goes to the middle back, one to his left, one to his right. Bonestorm occurs. Marrowgar is followed by tanks, but his last move before the end takes him from the far left of the room, to the back right of the room. Aggro resets. Tanks are in range to taunt, but the gap between them and Marrowgar is potentially more than 3 seconds. You pre-taunt and instead have 2 seconds. You will be lose before you can reach him if DPS does not hold off slightly. Or, alternately, lose threat as you reach him, resulting in him turning around and Saber Lashing your melee.

Random movement direction + 100% aggro drop = issues with pickup. Does it happen every time? Certainly not. Does it happen? Yep. Definitely your fault as DPS for not realizing what's happening and taking steps to prevent it.

[OnlineSamantha]

You also forgot to mention in your first post, DK's have 2 taunts. DG still counts as a taunt regardless of them being pulled in. That big "Immune" message is the drag being resisted.

So in theory, you can DG > IT > Dark Command on the way to the boss.

To the OP, Soul Shatter if your dot's are still up, and use SB/Haunt.

Agreed
Though it may be a little hard to click that little "Taunt" button down at your action bar, it's not impossible. I do it every week, and I don't even use a mouse! /end sarcasm

No seriously OT: You should try to stop casting when the transitions end.

[gherkin]

One thing I've found is that some tanks don't watch omen close enough. When the transition ends, Omen gets set to zero. THIS IS WHEN YOU SHIELD SLAM. THIS IS WHEN YOU GO APESHIT ON THE BOSS. If you used Shield Slam / Shield of the Righteous / etc and it's on CD now, you're doing it wrong.

Taunt comes seconds later when other people may or may not have aggro.