Instead of limited attempts

[Dvaldin]

My concept of limited attempts is that it's basically the same thing as in the old days of video games when you had X number of lives before you hit GAME OVER. Of course, that's not the case in most MMO's.

I think as an alternative to limited attempts -- and thereby forcing guilds to level alts for more attempts -- the developers should just have the entire instance reset if you fail to kill said boss in X attempts, but without the drops from the former bosses. Kind-of similar to something like if you kill the first couple of bosses in Black Morass or Violet Hold but die on the last one.

That'd be basically the same thing but without having to deal with leveling an alt.

[flamey]

The reason they have implemented limited atempts is because they have made the game so easy.
The devs realised that once people "finish it" they quit untill the next patch and thus alot of sub monney is lost.

So they dont want people to finish the game and they want you to keep playing.

Before limited atempts, they used to have cock block bosses, or bosses that required resistance gear to be farmed.
I personally liked the old option more, since raiding was far more chilled. With limited atempts every one is just super serious on progress tries and one single mistake can lead to a flame wars or even people gquiting

[Rogge]

Having to kill the same bosses over and over for no loot.

That's your idea for how to improve the game?

No offense but worst friggin idea all.. day, atleast.

[Dvaldin]

Having to kill the same bosses over and over for no loot.

That's your idea for how to improve the game?

No offense but worst friggin idea all.. day, atleast.

I didn't say anything about it 'improving the game', I offered it as an alternative to limited attempt lockouts and making alts to keep doing it.

The reason they have implemented limited atempts is because they have made the game so easy.
The devs realised that once people "finish it" they quit untill the next patch and thus alot of sub monney is lost.

So they dont want people to finish the game and they want you to keep playing.

Before limited atempts, they used to have cock block bosses, or bosses that required resistance gear to be farmed.
I personally liked the old option more, since raiding was far more chilled. With limited atempts every one is just super serious on progress tries and one single mistake can lead to a flame wars or even people gquiting

I'm not arguing why they made limited attempts, I'm just saying there needs to be an alternative to making alts so a guild can have more attempts at said boss with their main character. Really, I don't have a problem with the limits in and of themselves.

The thing I really don't get is why folks are upset over things being easier. That is to say, why in the world do some people consider wiping over and over on a boss better, funner and more epic? Wiping sucks. Period. If you find that enjoyable, then I have no idea where you're coming from. And I'd assume that on, at least, the first couple of attempts on a new raid boss, every guild wipes. If they don't, they've probably PTR'd it or something else.

Again, what is it about wiping 200 times that makes a boss fun? It's not to me. I'll bet it's not to most people. Limited attempts simply mean you don't have to run it over and over again, at least with the same character. Not to put the uber "world first" guilds down, but really. Some of the things that are done to get those world first accomplishments constitute serious personal problems. When it's all said and done, the most that'll probably be remembered by very few in the real world is the guild's name. Not the characters, and certainly not your real name. That's an accomplishment? If it's not fun going for the accomplishment, if a video game which presumably is designed for entertainment isn't fun, why in the heck would someone play it? Moreover, why would anyone complain about it to other people who do find it entertaining and tell them they don't know what they're talking about? That's not going to change anything. It's pointless.

I used to play WoW a lot more than I currently do, and I'm glad it's not the time sink that it once was. Sure there are things I miss. I think the biggest flaw in Wrath came at endgame with the first raiding dungeon being a redesigned old one (Naxx), and that, I think, set the ball rolling skewed until Ulduar came out. Uld was really fun. Still, I think the best overall designed dungeon since day one has been Karazahn. Kara being the first endgame raid with BC, and Naxx being the first with WotLK, I think speaks enough for itself. Are the dungeons as epic as previous ones? For the most part, with the exception of perhaps Uld, I don't think so. But, for me, that's not because it's easier.

I think the 'epicness' in Wrath came in the form of quest chains. Quests like searching for the girl's missing brother in the for the most part "Boring" Tundra, or storming with the Argent Crusade through the gate in Icecrown, or becoming friends with the Sons of Hodir. The quest lines were 30 times better than anything from vanilla or BC, with the exception perhaps of obtaining the key for Kara.

The flaw seemed to come with endgame raiding, but I read somewhere where someone at Blizzard said they recognized that and that endgame was being overhauled with Cataclysm which I think will be pretty interesting.

The folks with Blizzard certainly know what they're doing. Retaining 11+ million subscribers over a more than five year period is a phenomenal accomplishment, and I'm willing to bet a lot of people who have dropped will buy Cataclysm just to see how it is.

[Niea]

My concept of limited attempts is that it's basically the same thing as in the old days of video games when you had X number of lives before you hit GAME OVER. Of course, that's not the case in most MMO's.

I think as an alternative to limited attempts -- and thereby forcing guilds to level alts for more attempts -- the developers should just have the entire instance reset if you fail to kill said boss in X attempts, but without the drops from the former bosses. Kind-of similar to something like if you kill the first couple of bosses in Black Morass or Violet Hold but die on the last one.

That'd be basically the same thing but without having to deal with leveling an alt.

WAT?

What you just said would further encourage alts since no one would want to reclear the earlier part of the instance with no rewards, better to clear it on alts in a separate run for the gear.

[jr06]

How bout... 1 attempt and 1 attempt only, after which the boss leaves the game forever and a message pops up:

"You're dead. Your guild is dead. Your gear and money is now mine. Go die in a fire. You're a failure. Get over it."

[Unlisted1]

I think the 'epicness' in Wrath came in the form of quest chains. Quests like searching for the girl's missing brother in the for the most part "Boring" Tundra, or storming with the Argent Crusade through the gate in Icecrown, or becoming friends with the Sons of Hodir. The quest lines were 30 times better than anything from vanilla or BC, with the exception perhaps of obtaining the key for Kara.

I can recall several "epic" quest chains out in the Blasted Lands, taking you over the entire map, Swamp of Sorrows, Azshara, 20-30 part quests in the chain, EPL quest chains turning you into Scarlet Crusade, killing the courier, Defending Darrowshire, once again, huge chains, all tons of fun, huge imagination, just because they couldn't phase and add cutscenes doesn't mean they weren't awesome.

All the key chains in BC (Arc, Kara, Shattered halls), all quest chains just massive, most requiring instance or 5 man groups to obtain.

Not saying Wrath doesn't hold amazing quest chains, but Vanilla and BC held some of the funnest and most imaginative quests in game.

Obviously you neglected to do most of these quests.

[jr06]

Having just done a couple of those massive pre-BC chains for the loremaster title, I can say they were pretty epic. However, the rewards from them were really awful blues and so the incentive to do the quests wasn't there.

[Endler89]

The thing I really don't get is why folks are upset over things being easier. That is to say, why in the world do some people consider wiping over and over on a boss better, funner and more epic? Wiping sucks. Period. If you find that enjoyable, then I have no idea where you're coming from. And I'd assume that on, at least, the first couple of attempts on a new raid boss, every guild wipes. If they don't, they've probably PTR'd it or something else.

Again, what is it about wiping 200 times that makes a boss fun? It's not to me. I'll bet it's not to most people. Limited attempts simply mean you don't have to run it over and over again, at least with the same character. Not to put the uber "world first" guilds down, but really. Some of the things that are done to get those world first accomplishments constitute serious personal problems. When it's all said and done, the most that'll probably be remembered by very few in the real world is the guild's name. Not the characters, and certainly not your real name. That's an accomplishment? If it's not fun going for the accomplishment, if a video game which presumably is designed for entertainment isn't fun, why in the heck would someone play it? Moreover, why would anyone complain about it to other people who do find it entertaining and tell them they don't know what they're talking about? That's not going to change anything. It's pointless.

I used to play WoW a lot more than I currently do, and I'm glad it's not the time sink that it once was. Sure there are things I miss. I think the biggest flaw in Wrath came at endgame with the first raiding dungeon being a redesigned old one (Naxx), and that, I think, set the ball rolling skewed until Ulduar came out. Uld was really fun. Still, I think the best overall designed dungeon since day one has been Karazahn. Kara being the first endgame raid with BC, and Naxx being the first with WotLK, I think speaks enough for itself. Are the dungeons as epic as previous ones? For the most part, with the exception of perhaps Uld, I don't think so. But, for me, that's not because it's easier.

Wipings not fun, but you know its a lot more rewarding completing a difficult encounter then it is to faceroll for free loot. I'm sorry if we wipe ten times everytime get better than we down something the thrill of downing it is amazing. Id rather wipe ten times in one run the faceroll the whole thing the first attempt. Sorry but its a video game if theres no challenge to the game why play. I mean if i wanted a story i'd go pick up a book. A game without challenge is just an interactive story book.

[Dvaldin]

I can recall several "epic" quest chains out in the Blasted Lands, taking you over the entire map, Swamp of Sorrows, Azshara, 20-30 part quests in the chain, EPL quest chains turning you into Scarlet Crusade, killing the courier, Defending Darrowshire, once again, huge chains, all tons of fun, huge imagination, just because they couldn't phase and add cutscenes doesn't mean they weren't awesome.

All the key chains in BC (Arc, Kara, Shattered halls), all quest chains just massive, most requiring instance or 5 man groups to obtain.

Not saying Wrath doesn't hold amazing quest chains, but Vanilla and BC held some of the funnest and most imaginative quests in game.

Obviously you neglected to do most of these quests.

Wrong. I did all those, and while they were fun, they don't hold a candle to the quest chains in Wrath. Requiring you to sink time to travel to different locations does not equal epic. The chains for the .5 gear were pretty well done though.

[Dvaldin]

How bout... 1 attempt and 1 attempt only, after which the boss leaves the game forever and a message pops up:

"You're dead. Your guild is dead. Your gear and money is now mine. Go die in a fire. You're a failure. Get over it."

lol. My point exactly.

Wipings not fun, but you know its a lot more rewarding completing a difficult encounter then it is to faceroll for free loot. I'm sorry if we wipe ten times everytime get better than we down something the thrill of downing it is amazing. Id rather wipe ten times in one run the faceroll the whole thing the first attempt. Sorry but its a video game if theres no challenge to the game why play. I mean if i wanted a story i'd go pick up a book. A game without challenge is just an interactive story book.

I hear what you're saying, and I agree. I say 10 wipes is reasonable, challenging and a way to learn fights, and I think that's about where the game is for most people. 50 or more though? No way. That's unreasonable and a complete waste of time. 200? Helll, no.

Take the number of guilds who have completed an ICC encounter and multiply that number by 25 and I think that should give a reasonable estimate of the amount of people who have completed it. I'd be willing to guess that compared with the amount of people subscribing it's a pretty low percentile.

That's to say, challenging is such a subjective term. What's challenging to you or I isn't necessarily challenging to johnny-on-the-block. It's fine to condemn something personally because we don't find it challenging, but to post to johnny about it is pointless. Perhaps it'd be more constructive to write the company and ask for such encounters. I'm willing to bet if they received a massive influx of such requests you'd get it. Just saying.

[cyzzie]

i'd like something like a "morale" debuff

after like for every 5 attemps (or 10, its just an example) you fail on the same buff, the group gets a "sunken morale" debuff reducing all stats with 5% stacking ... so bascially you can continue trying/learning the boss but after a fair amount of failed attemps it will be impossible to beat the boss due to bad morale

[jontaxe]

Limited attempts rule. I'm sort of pissed they got rid of them in normal mode.

Limited attempts give your guild leaders somethings to think about. "Which fights are we good at? Should we practice Putricide, which we suck at, or down BQL for teh lootz" You and your guild have to strategically allocate and use your limited number of allowed deaths instead of throwing bodies at an enemy like you were the 1942 Red Army.
Limited attempts mean that you don't feel obligated to keep wiping until your eyes bleed and each attempt becomes worse than the last rather than better.

But most of all,
Limited attempts show actual skill instead of whose guild is comprised of 19 year olds with no day jobs.

I'm real sorry that a ~20 or so guilds are whining about "Waaah, it makes us play mirror altz!!!!!" but, shit, who cares? It literally only forces the 20 or so guilds going for world firsts to run alts.

Limited tries rule. I could give less a shit if 500 of 11 mil. world first raiders don't like them.

[Sarcasm]

The reason they have implemented limited atempts is because they have made the game so easy.
The devs realised that once people "finish it" they quit untill the next patch and thus alot of sub monney is lost.

Why... why did the first post have to go to a douchebag like this?

Go and read http://www.mmo-champion.com/raids-du...y-quickly-%28/ . Raiding is just as hard as it always was, the only difference is we're smarter and have better tools to tell us what to do.

[ComputerNerd]

Limited attempts are there for a good reason.
They are to prevent learning an encounter by running it constantly until you get it down to a tee with a group who are in the lucky position to be able to do so.
If you wipe then you should learn something from that and improve, hence why you have only so many attempts to get it down within one lockout.
If you arent good enough to do so, then you should improve before you try it again.
You should not be able to repeat to your hearts content till you fluke into it.
It should be from skill, not running it till your eyes bleed.

[Ciege]

My concept of limited attempts is that it's basically the same thing as in the old days of video games when you had X number of lives before you hit GAME OVER. Of course, that's not the case in most MMO's.

I think as an alternative to limited attempts -- and thereby forcing guilds to level alts for more attempts -- the developers should just have the entire instance reset if you fail to kill said boss in X attempts, but without the drops from the former bosses. Kind-of similar to something like if you kill the first couple of bosses in Black Morass or Violet Hold but die on the last one.

That'd be basically the same thing but without having to deal with leveling an alt.

Meh i would have to say pass on this one. Limited attempts would work out better in the case of no wipes vs boss gives the best loot, more wipes less loot available. Think of it as a modified ToGC but applied to all the bosses. Rewards those who play well and people dont do so well get loot if they kill it as well.