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  1. #21

    Re: Should demo locks take priority on major SP upgrades?

    Completely depends on your loot system, but it is in the best interest of your guild for pure progression.

  2. #22
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
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    Re: Should demo locks take priority on major SP upgrades?

    Honestly, I think the real problem here is that the proposed discussion is based on a false premise. The old idea of prioritizing gear to tanks and healers is mostly a thing of the past. With hard berserk timers, DPS has to perform well, which means funnelling gear to healers can mean you won't meet those timers. I suppose you could gear up a few healers really fast then drop a healer, but it serves the same purpose as distributing gear evenly, but with less margin for error. By the same notion, with high DPS requirements and massive raid damage going out, you really don't get to prioritize tanks either. Beyond that, considering that Dodge, Defense, Parry, etc. is all utterly useless to DPS or Healers, tanks don't need priority on gear to stay well geared because those pieces can't go to them, but a SP/Haste/Crit piece could potentially be a piece to argue priority over for DPS or healers. IOW, you won't find many guilds focusing on gearing one aspect of their raid over another.

    That said, I do think there is a different point behind potentially prioritizing a Demo lock in that, if it's going to DPS, why not give it to the DPS that will make the best use out of it. But as others said, the DP buff isn't a no-brainer to make it better for the Demo lock. Sure, it could give a few SP to a lot of casters, but what if another caster scales well enough (whether mathematically or by simply being a really good player) that he'll make as much or better use out of it? What if it's a 100 SP for both you and an Arcane Mage, but it has Haste and it would replace a Crit piece on an Arcane mage? What if it has Hit that you can't really make good use of, but someone else can? The point is, a potential DPS gain from DP is probably going to be very case dependent and, even when it does win out, probably won't be by enough to make a noticeable difference.

    So really, once you throw in how it might appear to the other raid members, and Blizzard potentially altering class balance (and, as I understand, DP is near the top of the list), it just isn't worth prioritizing loot to Demo Locks for, at best generally going to be a very marginal difference to begin with. Even assuming you're a little caster heavy and it's a substantial SP upgrade, it's still probably not more than, what, ~200 rdps? What's 200 more rdps when your raid is well above 100k dps? IMO, even a small hit to morale would hurt far more than that would help. Sure, in a cutting edge guild, that extra DPS could make the difference, but in those same guilds, you can more easily determine how loot affects people's performance, and morale is much more a function of realm/region/world firsts than gear.

  3. #23

    Re: Should demo locks take priority on major SP upgrades?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xynthion
    You know what they say about making assumptions...:P I made this topic because I'm the demo lock in my guild, but I've passed on a lot of upgrades (we do loot council, and I'm an officer, so it looks bad if I loot whore). The biggest upgrade I've gotten lately is Rigormortis, where I and the mages that linked all linked Frost Needle, and all had about the same gearscore anyway.
    If your really worried about Rdps, you would take frozen bonespike over rigormortis. So i say no demo locks shouldnt get priority. Hell half my raid dont even know that i give them 400sp, but i do it anyway because i like raiding and i want to progress.

  4. #24
    The Patient
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    Re: Should demo locks take priority on major SP upgrades?

    id say its up to your guild/whatever loot system you use..

    but i dont gear for RDPS i gear for pdps demo the rest of the raid can shove their 20 spellpower differance so i can keep fronting 10-11k and being on first page world dps

  5. #25

    Re: Should demo locks take priority on major SP upgrades?

    Nah. The difference it would make to the raid dps is probably too tiny to be worth dealing with QQ from the other casters. And you will get it, whatever happens. Demo locks should not be getting 'special treatment'. Yea, they are maybe more useful than an affliction lock considering the buff, but I don't think gear distribution should be involved. If they get a raid invite every time, then you're wanted and needed. Get a raid invite every time AND get all the loot? No, that isn't fair.

  6. #26

    Re: Should demo locks take priority on major SP upgrades?

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitis
    but i dont gear for RDPS i gear for pdps demo the rest of the raid can shove their 20 spellpower differance so i can keep fronting 10-11k and being on first page world dps
    Enjoy your tiny personal DPS gain that is most likely not even visible in game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuq

    That said, I do think there is a different point behind potentially prioritizing a Demo lock in that, if it's going to DPS, why not give it to the DPS that will make the best use out of it. But as others said, the DP buff isn't a no-brainer to make it better for the Demo lock. Sure, it could give a few SP to a lot of casters, but what if another caster scales well enough (whether mathematically or by simply being a really good player) that he'll make as much or better use out of it?
    That's the issue at hand here. It really is that much of a no-brainer. Unless another class is upgrading 2 tiers of gear from a 226 to 264, then it's not mathematically possible for any other DPS to use rDPS Demo gear better. Remember what you're looking at is a class that favors Spirit and SP nearly twice as much as other classes, while scaling with Haste/Crit as well as most. In a normal 25 man setup Demo gets a scaling of 2.7-3 for SP and 1.9-2.2 for Spirit. Demo's second best stat is as good, or better than other classes best stat (1.7-1.9), while Demo's best stat is 40% or more better. It's a massive gap to overcome. Take some BiS Demo pieces like Greatcloak of the Turned Champion and you'll find it's 500+ DPS on its own. Now compare that to the 300-350 that Arcane, Shadow, Afflic, Destro, Fire, or Balance get from it. The difference is large enough that even if you assume DP is worth less than expected, it's always a better item for rDPS Demo.

    Now, if you want to get into Crit/Haste gear and such, meh. My guild does use a loot council system and we use four 'tiers' of need: Bis > Main > Dual > Off/PVP/RP. BiS is not 'truly' BiS, but rather your official gear list. Main is for a main spec on an item that you'll use right this second, but you'll upgrade later. Dual is for our official dual specs (healers/tanks who switch for certain bosses). Then just /roll for the rest. I do get priority on gear on my list over others who have the same gear on their list. Same reason I never get to sit out of a raid. Funny part? Almost none of my gear conflicts with anyone elses gear lists anyway. Only things that conflict are tier tokens, a trinket and bracers. That's the thing though, if you're not in a progression guild that is trying to optimize how quickly the raid as a whole is upgraded then well... you shouldn't expect favors. It's completely dependent on the type of guild you're in. For most guilds the 'drama' of this type of loot system isn't worth the trouble. People will be whiny little girls and you'll lose gear and experience.

  7. #27

    Re: Should demo locks take priority on major SP upgrades?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Many words about demo and loot.
    The issue at hand isn't whether gear will be better for demo locks, it's whether it's worth borking up a guild loot system to prioritize loot for someone, and whether you'll actually see a difference in a raid.

    The answer is almost 100% "No way in hell". For every piece of gear you covertly shove in the backpack of your demo lock, there are 5 people without food buffs, without a flask, moving out of fires slowly, not doing the right rotation, trying to eat and play, or just doing something wrong in general that will completely negate any percieved benefit from this.
    (This signature was removed for violation of the Avatar & Signature Guidelines)

  8. #28

    Re: Should demo locks take priority on major SP upgrades?

    Quote Originally Posted by krasgoth
    For every piece of gear you covertly shove in the backpack of your demo lock, there are 5 people without food buffs, without a flask, moving out of fires slowly, not doing the right rotation, trying to eat and play, or just doing something wrong in general that will completely negate any perceived benefit from this.
    Get Big Brother then. We don't start any boss pull in ICC without every single raid member being flasked and food buffed.

  9. #29

    Re: Should demo locks take priority on major SP upgrades?

    Quote Originally Posted by krasgoth
    The issue at hand isn't whether gear will be better for demo locks, it's whether it's worth borking up a guild loot system to prioritize loot for someone, and whether you'll actually see a difference in a raid.
    You should try brushing up your reading skills. You shouldn't quote and reply to things without fully reading and understanding what is being said.

    The answer is almost 100% "No way in hell". For every piece of gear you covertly shove in the backpack of your demo lock, there are 5 people without food buffs, without a flask, moving out of fires slowly, not doing the right rotation, trying to eat and play, or just doing something wrong in general that will completely negate any percieved benefit from this.
    And direct from what you 'quoted': "That's the thing though, if you're not in a progression guild that is trying to optimize how quickly the raid as a whole is upgraded then well... you shouldn't expect favors. It's completely dependent on the type of guild you're in. For most guilds the 'drama' of this type of loot system isn't worth the trouble. People will be whiny little girls and you'll lose gear and experience."

    :

  10. #30
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: Should demo locks take priority on major SP upgrades?

    Summary of thread:
    Yes it's an rDPS increase.
    No it's not worth the hassle.
    But rDPS is worth the hassle.
    Repeat until it breaks down into name calling and loot distribution system drama.

    Locking the thread before that last part happens.

    R.I.P. YARG

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