"Ulduar was too harcore" Wait What?

[Idaho Immortal]

Exaggeration for being downed quick. Quickest kill of a Expansion End Boss so far, by FAR.

Im not trying to start a hardcore debate or a Vanilla/BC vs WOTLK debate.

Im not saying that ICC is very easy, go try and pug that place at 3 out of 4 times your group is going to fail. Just would have liked Arthas, the Badass of the whole expansion, wouldnt have been killed the next day is all.


And about ppl going back to Ulduar...I just would have loved for them to not make their previous Teir raid completely obsolete when the make a new one...But with the emblem system thats in place..There is hardly any reason to go back to the previous teir..and NONE to go back to Ulduar.

expansion end is still up broski. will be for another month or so i bet

[BlazerWithTheLazer]

Well you can't expect someone that needs help going to the bathroom to think Ulduar was not hard.

[seam]

expansion end is still up broski. will be for another month or so i bet

Shh, you'll start the "Hardmodes aren't really progression!" argument again!

[sulfuric]

Shh, you'll start the "Hardmodes aren't really progression!" argument again!

They're progression but I have a feeling limited tries are keeping things alive that don't really deserve to still be standing.

[DeltrusDisc]

Sadly, the three I lack are all cakewalks (Razorscale, Kologarn, Vezax).

I am jealous. I am missing Razor, Mimiron, and Yogg. >.<

Vezax was indeed a cake walk, you woulda thought that it would be tough.... considering it's the damn boss before Yogg. -.-

Hell, Thorim was even tougher than Vez on hard mode imho. =/

[seam]

They're progression but I have a feeling limited tries are keeping things alive that don't really deserve to still be standing.

Iunno, from a dps standpoint alone, maybe it was just my guild, but on normal we killed him with about 2 minutes left on enrage. I also hear Paragon did it with almost 3 minutes left.

Now, considering he gains nearly double his health, and there are extra mechanics to look out for, I think it might just be a gear/dps issue for top guilds more than anything. Seriously though, 60 mil -> 100 mil, pretty harsh for a 15 min enrage.

[jontaxe]

Wall o text!!
Ulduar was good, but by no means was it "perfect". The first problem was early tuning. I'm looking at you, Mimiron trash! The second problem was hard mode rewards. ie, there weren't any. It's why some of the whiners are still soured on hard modes today. A 10x harder fight for a single item ~10% better? wtf. Hodir hard mode was total bullshit. It was straight RNG. Get enough power ups on your arc mages? Win! Don't? No chance. Overall it was very good, though. Steelbreaker hard was a bitch, but certainly fun.

Secondly: stop mentioning Yog0. Every damn scrub on these forums who I am willing to bet is pugging 6 month old content and wiping to Saurfang chirps "Yog0 Yog0 Yog0" every other goddamn post.

Yog0 doesn't count. That fight is an anomaly. Everything else in Uld is a nice, smooth difficulty curve. Yog0 is a "statistical anomaly". It's a throwaway. I'm not sure Blizz even thought it could be killed. Please stop chirping about Yog0 like it's supposed to prove anything about anything.

Am I the only one who thought ToC was actually pretty good? I know, I know. Circle room, no lore, you go from killing an Old God and the Silver Surfer to a goddamn Renfair. But still, I thought a couple of the bosses were pretty good. I'll grant you beasts and jarraxus were nothing but a DPS check. But I though faction champs was pretty good before you managed to decode the AI. You could definitely tell who PvPd a lot and who didn't during early heroic faction champs. Heroic valkyrs was a rough fight until your soakers got some practice. Plus... endless ball jokes forever. And Anub? Still fewer than 2000 guilds even now. Ask your healers and tanks how they feel about "lolololol TOC faesroll wotlk for scrubs" after a few goes at ToGC Anub.

But yeah, Ulduar was ok, except for the total bullshit rewards for hard modes, but what I suspect Mr. Chilton means by "too hardcore" is really "too time consuming." The fights in ICC are about on par with Ulduar, maybe a tad easier some places, maybe a tad harder others, but you will notice that they chopped the number of trash packs in there to damn near nothing. That is the biggest difference between Uld and ICC, and I suspect that's what he means by "too hardcore".

Actually, what does everyone else think? Was Ulduar (normal) harder than ICC (normal)? I haven't seen LK, yet, but I'd put Sindragosa up above Vezzax. Putricide is a total motherfucker compared to even Mimiron (normal) IMO. OTOH FL was harder than Gunship, XT and Iron Council would stomp Marrowgar and Deathwhisper into the dirt.

[seam]

I'm not sure Blizz even thought it could be killed. Please stop chirping about Yog0 like it's supposed to prove anything about anything.

I think they said they were scared it wouldnt be possible actually...(blizzcon)

Am I the only one who thought ToC was actually pretty good?

I enjoyed the fights. They were easy, and we had to do them forever, but they were fairly fun.

I have the same feelings about BT. It was fun, but after so long of doing it I'd rather never go back. Ever.

[Milanor]

This response disappoints me greatly. I personally felt that Ulduar was of a perfect size and difficulty and had just the right feeling of 'epic-ness' for a raid instance. My biggest complaint with ICC is that it feels so damn small compared to other raids, especially for being the scourge's main and most important stronghold. Even without teleporters, I can walk distance of the whole citadel in less than a couple minutes.

While I'm not leaning towards the "omg every new raid will now be one-room ToC style" extreme, I am hoping (praying) that our main, major-patch based raids will be a little longer than small pathways leading to five rooms and a teleporter frequency close to what I would see of McDonalds in any major city.

[liveitup1216]

what makes me sadface is that nobody on my server has been able to down anub25 or yogg0 still.

my guild JUST got server first alg in like november.
but atleast we're chipping away at arthas, finally getting a handle on transitioning after the first remorseless winter, now its valkyr/voidzone time.

[Beau]

I loved Ulduar. Well not loved, I have my complaints, but they're minor and mostly preferential as opposed to substantive.

Almost all the fights were difficult when I first encountered them, even on normal. As far as FL goes, it was still harder then say chess event. An easy fight or two here and there is no big deal. It's kind of fun to see what concepts they can come up with, even if it's not perfect, as long as it's not the majority. Anyway, the fights were hard. Remember tantrum before nerfs 1-4? That shit did more than tickle.

One of things I also appreciated about the zone was the way hard modes were implemented. For the most part it was saying, "Hey, you know all that retarded stuff that you people like to try to do just to say you did? Well here's an achievement, some slightly better loot, and an achievement for doing it." We saw people doing level 60 Ony with 3 people back in Vanilla. Why? To make a video and show it could be done. We saw rogues tanking Gruul for no other reason than to do it. Even in Wrath before hardmodes there were Naxx speed runs with records of who cleared it the fastest. Now, there is slight incentive to do otherwise silly things. Kill Freya with three trees up and get a shiny, not just some hits on your Youtube account. The way I felt about Yogg0 (which no, I've not done) is that it doesn't matter if it had been impossible, they were admitting that there were those of us who would try it. And no matter what, it WOULD be possible some day. Reason to come back.

Honestly most of my dislike of Ulduar comes from its looks and its layout. I'll admit I like shiny happy pretty places. ToC was prettier. I like pretty. Ulduar and ICC are not pretty. They are certainly very cool in places, but when I've seen the places a billion times, cool dies, pretty doesn't. I also LOVED the layout of NAXX. I liked the wings. I liked the way when we started the zone we had a clear stopping point for a smoke break at the end of a wing. Later, it was two wings. While the path in Ulduar and ICC may be easy to follow (something not always true in places like Kara) I like organization. No bearing on HC or not, just a two cents worth of things I like that you don't care about.

Still, I think Ulduar is going to go down as the best raid in Wrath. It was accessible to everyone (esp since Naxx was easy enough for virtually all) but it was not conquerable by all. Guilds broke up because they could farm Naxx but not Ulduar. Is that good? Not for the guilds, but it does show that the content is challenging.

[Thatwsntmilk]

The reason for that is so new 80s or main switchers can quickly get geared up to take on their new role in raids. Yes, people can completely skip Naxx, Uld and ToC. Why do you care? Its their loss if they dont want to go try them out at all. Also, have you noticed how long it takes to get T10? You dont just go heroics -> T10 it takes at LEAST 30 days to get the 60 frost items. Sure its easier to get then in the past, but this is a game. Its still fun for many many people, and if its not fun anymore to some, maybe they just outgrew it. They can move on, or try to enjoy it.

The problem is that without a progression curve it is very hard to find a raid that really takes its time to progress through Ulduar for example. If I try to start a serious Ulduar raid nowadays I will only find people that just dinged 80 or people outgearing the place by far.
If we would have a real character progression through the entire Wotlk content people could actually start serious raids to ulduar or for example S3D without having a mix of fresh 80s in greens and people in full T9.

I mean I understand that now where the T7 raids are out there a bit longer already new people should progress through it a bit faster but right now those raids are basically removed from the character progression curve.

[kittycuddler]

Iunno, from a dps standpoint alone, maybe it was just my guild, but on normal we killed him with about 2 minutes left on enrage. I also hear Paragon did it with almost 3 minutes left.

Now, considering he gains nearly double his health, and there are extra mechanics to look out for, I think it might just be a gear/dps issue for top guilds more than anything. Seriously though, 60 mil -> 100 mil, pretty harsh for a 15 min enrage.

Although I'm not sure if it's still a free kill after 9% like it is on normal, keep in mind that (if it is still a free kill) that while it's still a giant increase it's not 40 million, but probably more like 34 million or something. (Far too tired to even do simple subtraction right now haha)