Rupture Critting

[Voij]

Mhm.

Well now you have actually agreed with most of what i have said in the first place, maybe you will see why i come to the conclusion that creating more ramp up time for rogues before their dps really kicked in would not be such a bad thing for the game in general.

And if you don't share that opinion, at least we have the same opinion that rogues have the highest burst dps in game

Rupture-Change wouldn't change anything about that list, though.

And still, Rogue-Burst is not as high as you claim. Deliver some solid proof that we do more damage on adds at Put then others... or start realising that you're wrong.

Again, killing spree hardly counts, that's lie usng Army of the Dead, instant pyro and stuff lie that and claiming they'd be part of a classes burst. [they are, but you don't see people using them every 20secs on every add, now do you?]

[Separate]

Ask yourself what does more damage, 4 gcd's where dots only tick 2-3 times + 2 second cast, or 9-10 seconds worth of white attacks + mutis and a few evisces that have all had their damage dealt and finalised.

Where mobs die fast, a mellee player has instantly spent all damage and got 100% return for that damage. If a mob dies in less than 2 seconds, somebody with a 2 second cast has done 0 damage.

Mellees have high advantage over casters where mobs die quickly, and rogues have the highest burst out of all mellee dps.

It's a non argument, and somebody that has experienced almost all classes over the period of 4-5 years, i have a broad array of experience about the different types of damage that can be achieved in WoW.

So without an extremely strong argument, i'm afraid you won't change my understanding of the game.

Lol its not rocket science, I dont need a strong argument to say PVE mutilates burst is overpowered....why do you think so many rogues are combat on fights where there is alot of switching involved? Pretty much all of our "burst" abilities as mutilate come from our poisons being stacked to 5 on the boss+ the envenom buff. So Within the time of that happening Survival Hunters can explosive shot and fit in 3155516 other attacks for those few seconds, arcane mages cast for 10-15k repeatedly from the start of the fight plus missle barrage, Elemental shamans...I mean where do you see Mutilate being to bursty?

[Annoying]

Wait, wait. I fail to see how burst matters in PvE. You either kill the add/boss in time or you don't. Raiding is a group activity. Having burst classes that can nuke adds down fast in PvE is a good thing for a raid, yeah?

[Separate]

Wait, wait. I fail to see how burst matters in PvE. You either kill the add/boss in time or you don't. Raiding is a group activity. Having burst classes that can nuke adds down fast in PvE is a good thing for a raid, yeah?

Well obviously, but he is missing the point. I understand if a boss dies who cares if we are doing 13k dps as long as hes dead Im not complaining about that. The fact that he thinks A. pve burst matters B. Mutilate rogues are to bursty (for pve i guess) I dont care enough to argue anymore really.

[Executia]

On the first or second page , someone already broke down the rupture damage with crit cap. It's somethin about 16-19k dmg in full duration. So you will absolutely agree that Mutilate doesn't have the slightest chance to involve rupture without losing dps. An Envenom crit alone will superior a whole Rupture. Even if envenom isn't critting , the envenom buff will do the job. As Combat , on the other side , it could definately a dps increase. Even with ArP capping. An eviscerate crit will do almost the same or slighty more dmg than a rupture. But rupture will have a more sustained , less rng dependent , dmg. Eviscerate is purely rng based , even more with tott glyphed combats. Let's see what result full 25 raidbuffed combats will bring and decide then. But atm the numbers show that combat definately , even arp capped , could see a dps improvement with using rupture.

[Ascendedthehero]

I didn't take time to read every post in this thread, so sorry if it's already been said. But for anyone worried about having to bring rupture into the rotation again, sure, maybe rupture could fit into the scheme to completely maximize damage, but there's no real reported nerfs yet for this patch. Which means the damage you have now won't change if you don't switch to a rupture spec. And most people agree that rogues are fine the way they are right now, so even if you could switch to get a little better damage by paying more attention with rupture, its not like this patch is pidgeon-holing you into it. So anyone whos worrying: Stop caring so much! Just wait and see how the numbers play and then try it and see if it works for you.

[Skilz]

This thread is being trolled. There is no way anyone actually think Garrote -> HFB -> SnD -> Mutilate -> Envenom and THEN and ONLY then start too get 5 stacks of DP which is almost my entire DPS will give me more burts then just spamming Arcane Blast or, Sinister Strike, or whatever Hunters do these days. It just doesn't happen, mutilate must be the worst PvE burst class ever maybe with the honoreble exeption of a Affliction Warlock.

[Voij]

It is impossible to be wrong about personal opinions, eh?

What if my personal opinion were that you'd be retarded, then? Wouldn't be wrong, right?


Anyways, back to your post:

The other guy also agreed muti rogues have the most burst in game, along with the other classes we mentioned.

Hope you didn't mean me with that, as I've never said anything like that. I believe what Separate(iirc it was him, don't hit me if I'm wrong) meant to say was, that it's just completely RNG.

I had a Survival Hunter have an average crit-chance of ~90% on one of those giants before Marrowgar.[Those activated by traps]
He had 100% crits with Kill Shot, about 90% crits with Explosive Shot, rest all were above 80% aswell.
He did about 12k dps on one of those things. Now show me the Rogue who has 90% crits please...

So yeah, that RNG statement of his was AGAINST YOUR POINT. Just because someone has incredible luck with crits, energy- and cp-procs doesn't mean that his "burst" is always that high.

Yes, i know, you can see from my avatar i play a rogue as an alt aswell as you.

Have to state this: Doesn't matter. I have a warrior-alt and know next to nothing about them. Sure, he's not even 60 yet, but hey, look at me, I have a warrior-alt, I'm probably the most informed persons about warriors on this whole friggin planet!

Just because you have a char of a certain class doesn't mean that you know anything about them. There's enough rogues on my server who have no clue how important it is to have a fast weapon right now. If you don't know the dps difference of the weapons that makes 2x 1.8 better then 1.8 and 1.4, then you count as one of those I mentioned.

Just because rogues have some ramp up time, it doesnt mean it is as much as other classes. The burst dps gained from white attacks + combo point builders are still superior to other classes that have to wait 9-10 seconds before any dps kicks in at all.

You're comparing Rogues with Affliction Locks, eh?

"Dude, your sling is nothing compared to his paint ball gun!"
"Uhm... guys, what about that one over there with his AK47?"
"Yeah, as I said, that paint ball gun beats the shit out of your sling!"

See that? That's first your statement, my answer, then your response to my answer.



Last but not least:
As has been mentioned, SEVERAL TIMES, a Rogue's "ramp up time" is defined as mostly stacking up DP. Followed by the finishers that have to be used.

If you want to tell me that you don't know of any class, with all the knowledge you claim to have about this game, that can dish out more damage during the time that Rogues require to get their DP-stack up and running, then gtfo and stop spreading your bullshit.

Rogue burst is, outside of KS, not too shabby. It's not incredibly high either. We're about at the end of the first third.

KS, as mentioned, is the highest burst you can get into a 3second-timeframe. If you wanna go at 1sec, that's Instant Pyroblast. [Or Chaosbolt+Conflag]
Still, that doesn't matter. 3second-bursts are of no importance in WoW atm. And even then, a Rogue would only be able to deal such burst every 75 seconds and only if there's not more then 1 target. (2 targets if they stand close to each other and every 2mins using Bladeflurry)


Just get it already, Rogue-Burst is not as high as you claim it to be. It's not a matter of opinion, your statement is wrong and that's it.
Just because you might think it'd be different, doesn't mean that those people saying Rogues do no damage in PvE and are capped at 5k dps are right either. Cause, you know, if you think you're not wrong, then you'd also say that those people wouldn't be wrong.

[Deleted]

wooshiewoo, I seriously think you misunderstood one of the replies made by Voij as him agreeing with you.

He was answering your questions made in this post.

You asked three questions:

In your opinion, which class has the highest burst in game, and able to deal the most amount of damage in the shortest possible time?

In your opinion. which class has the most sustained dps aswell?

His answer:

rogue with ks, else Survival; pyro; mut-rogues and arcane-mages

To quote Wikipedia:

Applications of the semicolon in english include: [...] Between items in a series or listing containing internal punctuation, especially parenthetic commas, where the semicolons function as serial commas:

So, the answer to the three questions you made are:

which class has the highest burst in game

rogue with ks, else Survival

able to deal the most amount of damage in the shortest possible time

pyro

which class has the most sustained dps aswell

mut-rogues and arcane-mages

So, in no way, did Voij ever agree with you.

[Shadowviper]

Hmm, I am thinking as combat. Is it worth it to go back to rupture after having such a high armor pen rating? If you switch back to rupture that's less eviscerates but will the critting of the rupture make up for the damage lose of Eviscerate?

[eatflesh]

1 AB=13k ish damage. Cast almost instantly at the start of the fight, in around 2 seconds (Haste included).
I know sure as hell that I do not do 6.5k DPS in the first 2 seconds of the fight as a mutilate rogue. Maybe 8k DAMAGE (divided by 2 seconds is 4000 DPS)if I am REALLY lucky with crits, but my damage comes in about 5 seconds later, having mutilated, SnDed, HfBed, and then mutilated twice for envenom. In that time, the mage has done at least 2 more arcane blasts. He has higher burst.