Pre Cataclysm goodies.

[Deleted]

You have no idea how much i love blizzard now

to love Blizzard is impossible, it cannot be done

[Faerillis]

I hope so! There are a lot of things I wish they'd change around lorewise for the Cataclysm, I just don't have much faith in Blizzard's drive to do so anymore. Ideally they'd make up their minds about the Horde too - the whole "no, no, they're not evil, they're really quite noble" explanation has started growing very weak over the course of WoW, as atrocity after atrocity is commited by Horde races. As a Horde player myself, it's quite frustrating. This isn't what I signed up for!

Show me a non-Wrathgate atrocity and we'll talk.
(Wrathgate was not the Horde or the Forsaken, that was Putress who had helped cure the pre-Wrath event plague so we had no reason to suspect him.)

[Shrouded]

That's why all my toons left both factions and shacked up with the Argents. Also, for the most part the Horde is made of knights in sour armor. It's just that their massive jackasses happen to be in higher positions of command than the majority of the Alliance's, save certain ones in the Alliance that look like a high-school DBZ fanboy designed them, nudge nudge wink wink say no more say no more.

Heh, yeah. I can overlook some of his flaws given his history, but I'm not really impressed with any of the racial leaders, Horde OR Alliance.

Tyrande is a murderous bitch, Fandral is an arrogant ass, Magni is an okay guy but prone to inaction, Varian is Varian, Mekkatorque nuked his own people, Velen is... actually a pretty decent guy, but prophecy is overpowered so that's -5 points for him.

Meanwhile, Sylvanas is ridiculously evil - yes, she is, don't deny it; Lorthemar is... he's there, I guess. He reprogrammed his robot guards, good for him. Thrall is a good guy at heart but a terrible leader who can't keep his own people in check, Cairne mirrors Magni in being a good guy who does nothing but smoke all day. Vol'jin's pretty cool now that he's not a cannibal anymore.

But would I follow any of them in battle? No thank you. I'd rather throw my lot in with the Wyrmrest Accord or, well, the Argent Crusaders who didn't vote for building a tournament ground in the middle of enemy territory.

[Shanur]

Show me a non-Wrathgate atrocity and we'll talk.
(Wrathgate was not the Horde or the Forsaken, that was Putress who had helped cure the pre-Wrath event plague so we had no reason to suspect him.)

/puts on tinfoil hat

Sylvanas was behind the wrathgate

[Krunk]

Show me a non-Wrathgate atrocity and we'll talk.
(Wrathgate was not the Horde or the Forsaken, that was Putress who had helped cure the pre-Wrath event plague so we had no reason to suspect him.)

well, i dont mean to point fingers, but there was the Draenei Genocide, and the first and second wars, although out of fairness that was the "old horde"


Other than that, there was the Broken Front incident, Massacre of Hillsbrad, Murder of the Prince of Stromgarde, Attacks on Warsong Gulch




Then again, the Alliance has committed its share of atrocities, os meh....

[Shanur]

well, i dont mean to point fingers, but there was the Draenei Genocide, and the first and second wars, although out of fairness that was the "old horde"


Other than that, there was the Broken Front incident, Massacre of Hillsbrad, Murder of the Prince of Stromgarde, Attacks on Warsong Gulch




Then again, the Alliance has committed its share of atrocities, os meh....

all fuel'd by demon blood corruption and the burning legion no?

[Shrouded]

Show me a non-Wrathgate atrocity and we'll talk.
(Wrathgate was not the Horde or the Forsaken, that was Putress who had helped cure the pre-Wrath event plague so we had no reason to suspect him.)

First of all, yes, it was the Horde. Go through all the Forsaken quests - not only did we players help to develop the plague, Sylvanas had intended to do exactly the same thing; just at a different time. The plague wasn't developed just to destroy the Scourge, she'd intended to wipe out every living thing with it! The fact that Putress beat her to it doesn't at all negate the fact that she developed it for that very reason!

The Broken Front at Icecrown. "Oh look, the Alliance are attacking the Scourge and trying to establish a foothold in Icecrown so they can defeat the Lich King! Let's attack them from behind so that doesn't happen!"

The North Fleet in the Howling Fjord, hunted to extinction by the Forsaken long before the events of the Wrathgate.

Pretty much every Forsaken quest leading up to the Dragonblight, with their chemical/biological warfare, etc.

Look, I play Horde. I wish I could say that we were the good guys too. It just hasn't played out that way. I love the Forsaken as a race, but they're really, really evil. The blood elves were pretty evil leading up to the events at the Sunwell. The orcs aren't evil, but I'll be damned if Blizzard aren't pushing them that way with Garrosh. I'd like nothing better to be able to say that "hey, we're the misunderstood faction", but that just doesn't ring true anymore.

[Shanur]

First of all, yes, it was the Horde. Go through all the Forsaken quests - not only did we players help to develop the plague, Sylvanas had intended to do exactly the same thing; just at a different time. The plague wasn't developed just to destroy the Scourge, she'd intended to wipe out every living thing with it! The fact that Putress beat her to it doesn't at all negate the fact that she developed it for that very reason!

The Broken Front at Icecrown. "Oh look, the Alliance are attacking the Scourge and trying to establish a foothold in Icecrown so they can defeat the Lich King! Let's attack them from behind so that doesn't happen!"

The North Fleet in the Howling Fjord, hunted to extinction by the Forsaken long before the events of the Wrathgate.

Pretty much every Forsaken quest leading up to the Dragonblight, with their chemical/biological warfare, etc.

Look, I play Horde. I wish I could say that we were the good guys too. It just hasn't played out that way. I love the Forsaken as a race, but they're really, really evil. The blood elves were pretty evil leading up to the events at the Sunwell. The orcs aren't evil, but I'll be damned if Blizzard aren't pushing them that way with Garrosh. I'd like nothing better to be able to say that "hey, we're the misunderstood faction", but that just doesn't ring true anymore.

Ugh, it is WAR, ship based battles and fighting for a foothold in icecrown need not apply. I do personally believe Our lil Banshee queen had a hand in the plague but everything else you said is acts of war, alliance would have done the same thing

[Snowulf]

First of all, yes, it was the Horde. Go through all the Forsaken quests - not only did we players help to develop the plague, Sylvanas had intended to do exactly the same thing; just at a different time. The plague wasn't developed just to destroy the Scourge, she'd intended to wipe out every living thing with it! The fact that Putress beat her to it doesn't at all negate the fact that she developed it for that very reason!

The Broken Front at Icecrown. "Oh look, the Alliance are attacking the Scourge and trying to establish a foothold in Icecrown so they can defeat the Lich King! Let's attack them from behind so that doesn't happen!"

The North Fleet in the Howling Fjord, hunted to extinction by the Forsaken long before the events of the Wrathgate.

Pretty much every Forsaken quest leading up to the Dragonblight, with their chemical/biological warfare, etc.

Look, I play Horde. I wish I could say that we were the good guys too. It just hasn't played out that way. I love the Forsaken as a race, but they're really, really evil. The blood elves were pretty evil leading up to the events at the Sunwell. The orcs aren't evil, but I'll be damned if Blizzard aren't pushing them that way with Garrosh. I'd like nothing better to be able to say that "hey, we're the misunderstood faction", but that just doesn't ring true anymore.

I think we can be as evil as we want after being put in concentration camps by the alliance...

[Izhara]

Heh, yeah. I can overlook some of his flaws given his history, but I'm not really impressed with any of the racial leaders, Horde OR Alliance.

Tyrande is a murderous bitch, Fandral is an arrogant ass, Magni is an okay guy but prone to inaction, Varian is Varian, Mekkatorque nuked his own people, Velen is... actually a pretty decent guy, but prophecy is overpowered so that's -5 points for him.

Tyrande has mellowed considerably of late, probably because of the mirror Fandrel presented. These days she's more interested in the night elves' well-being and lets Shandris handle matters military. Magni may be prone to inaction, but the few times he's involved himself in a war he's pretty much leveled everything with a health bar that isn't on his team. Mekkatorque only nuked Gnomeregan after every other plan failed and they realized help wasn't coming, and do keep in mind he's the guy who came up with the Deeprun Tram. He's not the strongest out there but damn if he isn't in the top ten brightest minds in Warcraft lore.

Meanwhile, Sylvanas is ridiculously evil - yes, she is, don't deny it; Lorthemar is... he's there, I guess. He reprogrammed his robot guards, good for him. Thrall is a good guy at heart but a terrible leader who can't keep his own people in check, Cairne mirrors Magni in being a good guy who does nothing but smoke all day. Vol'jin's pretty cool now that he's not a cannibal anymore.

Sylvanas, too, has been mellowing out. She's still evil but now she's got a genuine investment in the Horde, between arguing for her former peoples' inclusion as well as what happened after Wrathgate. We can be safe to assume she's going to plunge headlong into more matters of interest to the Horde to pay off that debt. Lor'themar is a lot cooler in lore than his in-game representation makes him out to be. The guy is a hero among the blood elves and a veteran of the Second War, as well as numerous skirmishes against the Amani and the Scourge. Think Legolas with balls. I'm not sure where the disconnect between Thrall as of Cycle of Hatred, where he crushed a subordinate's head for disobeying him and trafficking with demons in the hopes of re-igniting Alliance-Horde hostilities and now where he lets Garrosh flex his nuts and install incompetent leaders like Krenna in Northrend, but I've got hope for Green Jesus yet. Cairne's got a good excuse--he was old even in WC3, he's got to be nearing the end of his natural life span by now. Vol'jin, now, needs a lot more to do, as do the Darkspears in general. So much potential for awesome going to waste.

But would I follow any of them in battle? No thank you. I'd rather throw my lot in with the Wyrmrest Accord or, well, the Argent Crusaders who didn't vote for building a tournament ground in the middle of enemy territory.

The tourney had Shadow Vault--a major Ebon Blade outpost--within spitting distance, and since those two factions were working so closely together, should any Scourge have assaulted the tourney grounds they'd have a bunch of VERY unhappy (even by death knight standards) Ebon Blades coming in to give them a solid kick in the junk.

[Krunk]

all fuel'd by demon blood corruption and the burning legion no?

as the excuse goes


And while it can be excepted that the Orcs were driven by the Legion's deception to annihilate the draenei, the Legion had pretty much abandoned the Horde after shattrath was decimated.


After that, the orcs pretty much acted on their bloodlust


Not saying that they as a race are horrible people, its just that the invasion of azeroth was really not any choice other than their own

[Lightfist]

Show me a non-Wrathgate atrocity and we'll talk.
(Wrathgate was not the Horde or the Forsaken, that was Putress who had helped cure the pre-Wrath event plague so we had no reason to suspect him.)

Yeah, the hundreds of apothecaries in Undercity doing test of undead AND living subjects wasn't a good reason to keep out a close eye, right? =/
Or perhaps the Dreadlord adviser was supposed to balance that out?
Well, you're right, no way that could have been predicted. I understand it wasn't there intention, but they should claim some level of responsibility. Demon + Life destroying disease + Vengeful undead = What the fuck, guys? But, another argument for another thread.

However, I feel that the Tabard should only be awarded to those who have the Charger feat of strength. In addition, the ability to get this Feat should be removed. Same with the Blood Elf tabard.

Tauren can get their own tabard for doing whatever =P

Ugh, it is WAR, ship based battles and fighting for a foothold in icecrown need not apply. I do personally believe Our lil Banshee queen had a hand in the plague but everything else you said is acts of war, alliance would have done the same thing

The Horde at the broken front were under strict orders for a scout run. They broke that for "honor" because they were Garrosh-ilk Dickheads.

all fuel'd by demon blood corruption and the burning legion no?

Only one of those things was fueled by Demon Blood. That being said, that's no excuse, and I'm damn sick of hearing it.

If a strange man gives you PCP and you kill someone because you took it, you can't say "Yeah, but I was on PCP."

[Shrouded]

There was no war before the Wrathgate, no - the North Fleet was attacked for no other reason than that the Forsaken felt like it. The Broken Front did happen after the Wrathgate, so if you want to write that off as just another aspect of war, go right ahead - but maybe you should read the quest text in regards to those quests. They attacked the Alliance just because they could, and revel in the slaughter. They even have you going around killing off injured Alliance survivors to "shut up their moaning".

[Izhara]

There was no war before the Wrathgate, no - the North Fleet was attacked for no other reason than that the Forsaken felt like it. The Broken Front did happen after the Wrathgate, so if you want to write that off as just another aspect of war, go right ahead - but maybe you should read the quest text in regards to those quests. They attacked the Alliance just because they could, and revel in the slaughter. They even have you going around killing off injured Alliance survivors to "shut up their moaning".

Welcome to war, there are countless instances just like that happening in pretty much every war that's happened since mankind learned to hit each other with heavy rocks.

[Shrouded]

I think we can be as evil as we want after being put in concentration camps by the alliance...

No, that's also an excuse I'm not buying. :/

The orcs put into the internment camps were put there - at great expense to Lordaeron, both financially and politically - because it was the alternative to killing them all. The purpose of the internment camps was to eventually be able to integrate orcs into human society. Unfortunately, mismanagement by the corrupt Blackmoor turned the whole attempt sour, but it was good-intentioned from the start.

[Lightfist]

Welcome to war, there are countless instances just like that happening in pretty much every war that's happened since mankind learned to hit each other with heavy rocks.

Doesn't make it right, though =P

No, that's also an excuse I'm not buying. :/

The orcs put into the internment camps were put there - at great expense to Lordaeron, both financially and politically - because it was the alternative to killing them all. The purpose of the internment camps was to eventually be able to integrate orcs into human society. Unfortunately, mismanagement by the corrupt Blackmoor turned the whole attempt sour, but it was good-intentioned from the start.

Good point to a very, VERY stupid argument.

[Deleted]

The Horde at the broken front were under strict orders for a scout run. They broke that for "honor" because they were Garrosh-ilk Dickheads.

Exactly. People should just stop saying "the Horde massacred the Alliance at the Broken Front". The soldiers did it on their own, without an order. They were just hyped by Garrosh's "tactics" (AKA massacre everything that's not Horde).

[Izhara]

Doesn't make it right, though =P

Not saying it's right, just saying it's how war is.

[Lightfist]

Exactly. People should just stop saying "the Horde massacred the Alliance at the Broken Front". The soldiers did it on their own, without an order. They were just hyped by Garrosh's "tactics" (AKA massacre everything that's not Horde).

Yep. The Horde commander seemed rather upset when you tell him if I remember. I don't blame the Horde for the Wrathgate or the Broken Front, but as I said, I think they need to keep a closer watch over their units. I know not everything is preventable, but I feel like they could be doing a better job.

Not saying it's right, just saying it's how war is.

Then we're agreed.

Good day.

Perhaps you'd like to know that the Horde side shows that they were trapped between the Alliance on one side and the Scourge on the other and that it wasn't a co-ordinated attack from either side, but instead, one that just happened. More of a defensive move from the Horde rather than outright slaughter.

You sound like some elitist Alliance asshat fanboy who only cares what your side tells and without actually looking up what the Horde side shows.

Dying Alliance soldiers are slaughtered by the Horde, and vice versa. You know, neither side is right in the situation, and neither won looking at the amount of Scourge there are down there.

Ummm...hate to disagree with you Chronalis, but the Horde soldier says pretty clearly they did it because they could.

He then tells you, pretty clearly, to go kill them...because you can.

There's not really a defense to be given here. They acted against the orders of the Horde hierarchy and acted like complete dicks.

[Krunk]

Exactly. People should just stop saying "the Horde massacred the Alliance at the Broken Front". The soldiers did it on their own, without an order. They were just hyped by Garrosh's "tactics" (AKA massacre everything that's not Horde).

yeah, but if Billy the Alliance kid punches Krog the horde kid down at the ol' booty bay school yard, its suddenly "OMG, ALLIANCE AGGRESSION!"