Thread: Mana Issues

Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    Mana Issues

    hello

    I have played holy since i started this game in TBC and i have never had mana issues. It's not that I'm ooming or something on fights but my bro just lvled up a Shaman and specced resto on that, i healed with that a few times, can only compare to Toravon since thats what i dared to heal with the shaman since I'm not that familiar with it :P. But here is the deal. When i healed on my Priest i had to go through my shadowfiend and still were oom at the end of the fight, but when i healed on bro's shammy i had 30 % mana left. I'm better geared than bro's shaman so i was wondering if maybe i should gem/enchant some other way? Or is shamans Mp5 better these days?

    Here is a link to My priest: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...renas&cn=Nilon

    And here is a link to bro's shammy : http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...renas&cn=Chiws

  2. #2

    Re: Mana Issues

    Holy priests don't have any mana issues... I have gemmed for SP and haste and only gem SP/spirit in blue sockets because there isn't a better throughput gem for blue. My guess is you were sniping too many other healers, using PoH badly, carrying other poor healers, had awful dps which made the encounter 4 times longer than it should be, aren't as geared as you think you are.

    Without seeing a log, any opinions that anyone makes (including myself) are pure speculation and asking the question like you have is pretty pointless because no one can tell you what's going on.

  3. #3

    Re: Mana Issues

    Well that's a good question mate, with a simple answer... Shamans and Druid are OP and dont go Oom.
    Ok seems like a troll answer, but at the moment the healers that got some kind of issues with mana regen are Priest and Paladins.

    Playing an Holy priest involves that you use all you cd to dont go oom.
    With my priest i dont have so much regen problems, but during any encounter i need a good management of my CD, Shadowdiend, Divine Hyms, Crazy Alch Potion. And I am lucky to have the Solace.
    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...em&cn=Drjekyll

    IMHO, try at least to change the Nevermelting Ice Crystal with the Purifed Lunar Dust. If you can balance a bit your gems. Change the 12 sp + 10 spit, to the 10 int + 10 spi, and the 23 sp, with 12 sp + 10 int. Doing this, you'll have a larger mana pool.

  4. #4

    Re: Mana Issues

    Holypriests and Shamans were really bad, manawise in early WoTLK, while druids, paladins and discpriests seemingly never ran oom. I think this was a large contributor to why the discspecc got so popular. It was frankly because the holypriest sucked hairy donkey bits for the better part of Naxxramas. In Ulduar, the regen situation got a lot better for holypriests (amazing what some gear can do for you), and PoH was a great tool for healing the place.

    In ulduar, shammies fell far behind, lacking both regen and throughput. As a result, the shaman became a laughing stock healer. Sadly. Blizzard largely fixed shamans by increasing the output from MP5 by 25% and increasing chain heal jump range, but I think it was too late - my guild lost all our healing shammies before that happened, and the class is somewhat stigmatized since. Like holypriests, the shaman simply is not able to keep up with a well played druid. And unlike the holypriest, the shaman doesn't really have a lot of tricks up the sleeve to shorten the gap.

    Holypriests never quite got fixed in the mana department, but after a year of gearing up and leeching off druid innervates, we finally managed to outgear the situation in ToC. And by outgearing it I mean that we were able to heal for 6 minutes straight without needing an innervate. Holypriests still need to use the shadowfiend, pots and Hymn of Hope though. If you ever find yourself in a situation where you don't have to anymore, you have too much manaregen. Drop some regen and gear more heavily for throughput. Your specc is balanced against having your cooldowns, and using them. Not relying on the squid is basically gimping yourself. Go all out ^^

    The thing that really helped was the Solace trinkets. They are vastly over-budget as far as manaregen goes. Get them. Love them. With them, your mana issues as holy is largely over. If you can't get your hands on one, try gemming more for int. It really makes a difference.

    Ultimately, both discpriests, holypriests and shamans are considered second rate healers these days. We're the first to go if we need to cut down on healers. We're the first to go if the encounter requires more paladins. If the restodruid doesn't show, it's a very steep uphill battle convincing your raidleader that we can do the job in his place. I believe the main reason is that we have to think about our manaregen, while a paladin and druid can go all out on througput.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  5. #5

    Re: Mana Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Collection
    Well that's a good question mate, with a simple answer... Shamans and Druid are OP and dont go Oom.
    Ok seems like a troll answer, but at the moment the healers that got some kind of issues with mana regen are Priest and Paladins.
    O.o

    Since when did Paladins have mana problems?


  6. #6

    Re: Mana Issues

    Paladins had infinite mana until patch 3.2, when they got nerfed in the regen department (and buffed everywhere else). Paladins regularly run OOM these days, but most have compensated by (very slightly) gearing for intellect, vigous use of cooldowns and not the least - screaming for innervates like holypriests did in Naxx.

    A boss is ultimately balanced towards having a paladin spam HL on him close to every second. A paladin failing to uphold that demand will cause a wipe. Divine Plea is a great tool for regaining manaregen though, and paladins using it on every cooldown would not run oom too often. Still, it happens. I'd rather the paladin get the innervate than me
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  7. #7

    Re: Mana Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Danner
    Paladins had infinite mana until patch 3.2, when they got nerfed in the regen department (and buffed everywhere else). Paladins regularly run OOM these days, but most have compensated by (very slightly) gearing for intellect, vigous use of cooldowns and not the least - screaming for innervates like holypriests did in Naxx.

    A boss is ultimately balanced towards having a paladin spam HL on him close to every second. A paladin failing to uphold that demand will cause a wipe. Divine Plea is a great tool for regaining manaregen though, and paladins using it on every cooldown would not run oom too often. Still, it happens. I'd rather the paladin get the innervate than me
    Very slightly? Do you mean like "upgrading" a piece by losing 30 sp and gaining 3 int? Or do you mean gemming for Int like every holy pally... which is slightly at all?
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Mannoroth&cn=Chimaria

    People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

  8. #8

    Re: Mana Issues

    thanks for the replies.

    Belive me i have tried to get the solace trinket but wheneveer it drops I'm in a pug and then seen it drop multiple times, always end up second on roll, never dropped more than a few times in guild raid and then we have had other people needing it more than me...Wich really sucks.
    I'm going to try to regem and se if something happens and replace the nevermelting crystal with Purifed Lunar Dust..

    Worshaka, it's not really a mana issue, i just have to use all my cd's while i was on the priest. and when i went on the shaman i didnt have to use a single one although my priest is better geared than the shaman. that was what buggede me really

  9. #9

    Re: Mana Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilon

    Worshaka, it's not really a mana issue, i just have to use all my cd's while i was on the priest. and when i went on the shaman i didnt have to use a single one although my priest is better geared than the shaman. that was what buggede me really
    Not a mana issue? You might want to think about how you name your posts in future then

  10. #10

    Re: Mana Issues

    I think the general idea was : "I've got a well geared holypriest. I can deal with my mana using some CD and so on. but when I tried the middle geared resto cham from my bro and discovered I could do good heal without having a look at my manapool, so I wander if it is normal or if I do something wrong with my priest (assuming a better geared priest should have a better manaregen than a baddly geared restau cham)".

    Something like that

  11. #11
    Fluffy Kitten Ultima's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    3,198

    Re: Mana Issues

    Your only example is Toravon, and I solo healed that on my Priest with one tank (so much easier that way) so that boss isn't the best example.

    Also, did you consider you can't play a Shaman as well as a Priest and can't maximise it's healing output / "rotation" yet?
    I heal in the Arena
    Retired Moderator - Priest and PvP
    You can follow me @UltimaMMO_C

  12. #12

    Re: Mana Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    Holy priests don't have any mana issues... .
    My personal experience is that this varies, a lot. The standard mantra seems to be "gem Intellect", but this is actually incredibly void if your regular raid group somehow misses out on Replenishment - simply because you don't have any class/spec combo that has it in your raid. And yes, for more casual guilds that raid 10-mans, that happens. Happens to me from time to time, in any case, and I notice a very clear difference in my own mana regen between them. If Replenishment is not a guarantee, you are better off balancing some gems towards Spirit instead.

    Yes, I have to pop cooldowns, squeeze in a Hymn + Fiend combo without anyone dying in the mean time, preferably just before a Heroism hits (if available at all, see my previous comment) and I am an Alchemist too, so I can use an endless Mana potion (which is only slightly worse than a real mana potion, but is quite infinite). Usually, this is enough. The situations are rare that I have to ask for a Druid to innervate me, but it does happen from time to time. But then again, I am the best (geared) healer in my guild and I notice other healers struggling more (often) in the mana department than I do, including another Holy Priest.

    Also, did you consider you can't play a Shaman as well as a Priest and can't maximise it's healing output / "rotation" yet?
    Valid point; you should examine some logs or recount, to see your healing output on the Shammy and the Priest and compare them. You can really only say that the Shammy has less mana worries if the total healing output consumes less mana overall.

    By the way, if I may make a suggestion: invest the 3 talent points from Improved Healing into Blessed Resilience instead.

    Also, when just checking your profile, I see you have 2 Healing set pieces equiped and 1 DPS set piece. Might want to check on that .

  13. #13

    Re: Mana Issues

    i know the title wasn't that good but i couldnt come up with a better one.

    the idea was exactly as Ândrömèdâ wrote .
    and i know i have a dps chest but i need the haste from it since all other chests I have seen are crit on it. Not the chest from NB normal though but havent seen that drop and im lacking a bit of haste.
    Will move the 3 point as you suggested Kaysha, thanks for that

    can some one suggest an addon that will let me look at the out put aswell? only got recount and there i can only see healing done and overhealing if I'm correct.

    thanks for all the help btw

  14. #14
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Elune
    Posts
    996

    Re: Mana Issues

    The real issue here is that mana usage is balanced differently for different healing classes. Holy Priest mana is designed entirely different from any of the other healers. Every other healer can pretty much spam their max HPS spells and, given appropriate raid buffs, expect to have a fairly good mana longevity. Holy Priests aren't like that because our strongest niche is burst healing. They couldn't balance that with a CD because, well, PoH would be borderline useless if it had a CD because burst situations often require it to be cast 2+ times in a short timespan, so it's balanced around being very expensive to use, otherwise, we could just spam PoH endlessly the way Shamans spam CH or Paladins spam HL, and we'd always top meters. That is, most healers' mana longevity has a direct correlation to the length of the fight, while Holy Priest mana is able to be expended at different rates to accomodate the healing needed.

    Also, Holy Priests are balanced around CDs. We're the only class that gets two mana CDs, and we're expected to make use of them in mana intensive encounters, even worse, our cooldowns are inferior to those offered by other classes, and yet we're balanced roughly as if they're equal. Consider Shadowfiend is akin to an Innervate, except Shadowfiend can die early or putz around between targets, while Innervate is fire and forget and it's a guaranteed amount; worse, I think we're punished more for Shadowfiend because we're the only ones that can benefit, while Druids may need to Innervate someone else. Also consider Hymn of Hope as akin to Mana Tide, except we have to channel is, and we're not guaranteed even one tick, muchless the entire amount like Druids are. Now, of course, there's ways to abuse our regen, by stacking Shadowfiend and HoH or using multiple HoHs, or using HoH during Mana Tide, or whatever. Either way, as far as mana CDs go, IF I can make maximum usage of my CDs, I have zero difficulty lasting as long as other healers, regardless of how I heal, but that's difficult to do.

    Basically, my point is, we're the only healer where mana is still part of our class design, where pretty much every other healer is expected to be able to spam endlessly. Second, healers are expected to make use of their cooldowns and, really, if you're not making use of them and you're gearing/enchanting/gemming for extra regen, you could be getting more throughput. So, between these two factors, yes, Holy Priests are easily in the worst situation manawise, but still, it's not often that I find myself in danger of going OOM. Being aware of other healers' mana situations, I take advantage of it by ensuring I'm grouped with a Resto Shaman, if we have one, and coordinating Mana Tide usage, or soaking up Innervates from Druids.

  15. #15

    Re: Mana Issues

    Mana Regen for a holy priest is not really an issue. Holy priests, by design, are raid healers as I'm sure everyone knows. Your mana issues can be due to multiple things. If you are carrying lesser skilled/geared healers, the members of your raid are not avoiding unnecessary damage, or you are over-healing. Having said this, none of these should impact your mana regen that heavily.

    In order to maintain good mana regen and throughput as a holy priest you need to utilize the holy mechanics and use your abilities at optimal times. For example, although I'm sure this is very obvious, don't use CoH on range targets unless they are somewhat grouped up and multiple members of the raid can benefit from the healing. When I pug raids on my alts I find many misinformed holy priests casting CoH on random ranged targets simply because it is an instant heal with moderate throughput. This is extremely mana ineffective, if you are having mana issues, and also wastes the CoH CD for a time when it could be used much for effectively. An effective way to utilize CoH is to cast it off the tanks so that it hits all possible targets (melee) while also healing the tank. Nevertheless, CoH is not an effective tank healing spell by any means.

    Ensure that you are keeping 3 stacks of Serendipity up at ALL TIMES so that you can cast two PoH when the raid experiences alot of incoming damage. The OP mentioned comparing holy priest healing vs. shaman healing on Toravon; For Toravon, there is a predictable influx of raid damage. Assuming you have DBM or an equivalent, you know when the incoming raid damage is going to happen. Thus, precast PoH so that the spell cast ends right when the damage is experienced. However, I do not reccomend doing this if you are not a skilled priest, even though it is really easy, because if you do not time it correctly you will be wasting a 3 stack of Serendipity as well as the possible throughput of PoH.

    Renew is your friend. Utilize Empoewred Renew. Casting Renew is an extremely, although some players may disagree, way to keep the raid topped off during times of LID (Low Incoming Damage). Many beginning holy priests spam Flash Heal on targets who do not benefit from the full effect of the spell. When a raid member is sitting at less than 8k off their total buffed health pool FH will most likely over-heal. Another benefit of Renew is the instant heal it provides. Renew heals for a portion of its duration as soon as it is applied to the target.

    Another common mana drain for holy priests is not using PoM effectively. Using PoM on members of the raid other than the tank is risky. If you PoM a ranged then you are banking off the fact that they are in range of other ranged so the PoM can jump to an additional target and that the ranged will be hit again before the PoM wears off. Using PoM on the tanks is a very safe way to ensure that all of the possible utility of the spell is used. On fights like Marrowgar, where multiple tanks are being hit, PoM is extremely effective because it bounces between the tanks ans all of the possible throughput is utilized.

    In addition to the holy priests actual healing abilities, a good holy priest must also utilize shields. Using PW:S is all based off personal choice. Some holy priests in my guild very rarely use PW:S while others use it on a regular basis. Having said that, having a Disc priest in the raid negates a holy priests need to use shields because Disc priests have stronger shields, are hopefully glyphed for PW:S and can also proc Divine Aegis. When your raid does not have a Disc priest, which I have found is the case more often than not, a holy priest needs to utilize PW:S. This is done by casting PW:S on targets that are sure to take damage. A common use for PW:S is after you have cast PoH to heal up the raid from a high level of incoming damage but there is one raid member in particular who is still at somewhat low health. Using PW:S in this instance gives you a little extra time to get off the next PoH.

    In terms of actual mana regen you need to have a solid blend of intellect, spirit, and spellpower. Spellpower is always an extremely highly valued stat because it increases the overall throughput of your spells. The higher the throughput of your spells the less spells you need to cast thus you can take advantge of the OO5Second Rule. The OO5Second Rule is somewhat complicated and a further explanation can be found elsewhere (EJ). Intellect insures that you have a sufficient mana pool and are not draining too quickly. Lastly, spirit effects your actual regen in terms of while casting and not casting. I am a well geared priest, not gemmed for regen, and never have mana issues. Granted, some things cause fights to go a little haywire: DPS dying, raid members taking large amounts of unnecessary damage. Even when these occur, although very rare for my guild, I still am able to effectively heal without having to worry too much about my mana. For example, in 10 man Marrowgar this week I was #1 on the meters (alongside a resto druid and holy pally) doing about 42% of the healing and I finished the fight with about 70% mana. I did not use any mana regeneration cooldowns. When using abilities like Shadowfiend, HoH, and pots you need to do this effectively. Using Shadowfiend during Bloodlust greatly increases your mana regen because your shadowfiend is effected by Bloodlust and, thus, swings faster which produces more mana.

    Lastly, you can't try to do too much. Effective raid composition between the healers is the best way to ensure success. People are often plagued by the desire to be #1 on the meters and try to heal every single incoming damage. This will almost always, unless you are incredibly over geared for the encounter, result in failure. Letting other healers do their job is the most important thing.

    I apologize in advance for the MASSIVE wall of text but there is a fair amount to be said on the issue.

  16. #16

    Re: Mana Issues

    While most of what you say I agree with (and alot of it I've been preaching for quite some time), Kralcyt, I have a few points to pick apart here.

    First of which is the requirement to have 3 stacks of Serendipity for all times, which then you go on to suggest/promote pre-casting. If you're Pre-casting, you can do it with any level of Serendipity, and casting Flash Heal just to build up your stack is quite counterproductive. Second, you say you can use it for two consecutive Prayers? That makes no sense.

    Third would be the use of Renew for the instant heal. I do promote Renew as an instant heal over Circle, but its strong point is that for the same mana cost as a Flash Heal (and the same amount of time) you buffer any incoming damage that they might take in the future anyways.

    Fourth: Having a Discipline Priest does not negate the need for Holy shields, just because of Body and Soul.

    I don't really agree with this statement you make:
    The higher the throughput of your spells the less spells you need to cast thus you can take advantge of the OO5Second Rule.
    This is not the state of the game, nor has it been since vanilla.

    As a healer, you are casting. It is your job. If bringing your thoroughput up gets you to the point where you can stop casting, chances are you brought too many healers and your raid's DPS isn't as high as it could be, or your other healers are pulling your ass along. And Intellect is a very very valuable source of regen, while in combat, simply for the sake of Replenishment and its effects on your cooldowns.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  17. #17

    Re: Mana Issues

    I am gonna have to agree with Kelesti there. If there is ever a situation you have to cast 2 PoH in a row, your other raid healers are slacking then.

    While you can discuss B&S for hours on end, I am personally against it. My RL says, "it is your responsibility to move away from stuff". If other people fail to raid mechanics, have them get Tuskarr's Vitality.

    There are only 3 fights in ICC where a healer should be OO5SR; Putricide (for Tear Gas), Dreamwalker (if you enter portals) and Sindragosa (for Unchained Magic).
    As for mana regen, you need to effectively manage your CDs. Pop your fiend on heroism to get more hits in. If your guild doesn't run with a replenishment and a resto shaman, that is only hurting you in the mana department.
    I never use hymn of hope any more and no healer ever calls for an innervate. In fact, the innervates are going to the mages now :P

  18. #18

    Re: Mana Issues

    As a disc, I dont even have to think about my mana. But my mana gives me an idea of when I did good or not. I got 31k mana and alot mana regen. But when I end up almost oom at the end of a fight (I always use shadowfiend, and hymn of hope for the other healers) then I know I did a great job!

  19. #19

    Re: Mana Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralcyt
    Renew is your friend. Utilize Empoewred Renew. Casting Renew is an extremely, although some players may disagree, way to keep the raid topped off during times of LID (Low Incoming Damage). Many beginning holy priests spam Flash Heal on targets who do not benefit from the full effect of the spell. When a raid member is sitting at less than 8k off their total buffed health pool FH will most likely over-heal. Another benefit of Renew is the instant heal it provides. Renew heals for a portion of its duration as soon as it is applied to the target.
    I personally prefer FH over Renew; I am not spec'ed for Renew either. Mainly it's the mindset I have of "healing NOW" and not "a few seconds later down the road" (which may be too late). I admit though, that I have no feeling for the instant healing part of a fully talented and Glyphed Renew.

    Using PoM on the tanks is a very safe way to ensure that all of the possible utility of the spell is used.
    I found this to be untrue in too many cases. I primarily cast my PoMs on Tanks (but when raid damage is incoming I tend to cast it on who just happens to be my target at that point, like in the Bone Storm phase of Marrowgar), but I find it bouncing off to pets - especially Death Knight pets - after 1-2 bounces. Very annoying.

    In addition to the holy priests actual healing abilities, a good holy priest must also utilize shields. Using PW:S is all based off personal choice. Some holy priests in my guild very rarely use PW:S while others use it on a regular basis.
    This one is very situational, really. Usually you're better off using your GCD on something else instead, though. A shield from a Holy Priest doesn't absorb nearly as much as that of a Disc Priest. I only rarely cast it.

    When using abilities like Shadowfiend, HoH, and pots you need to do this effectively. Using Shadowfiend during Bloodlust greatly increases your mana regen because your shadowfiend is effected by Bloodlust and, thus, swings faster which produces more mana.
    This implies one thing, though: you need to have your Fiend out BEFORE the Heroism / Bloodlust lands, otherwise it doesn't benefit at all. And if you do it too early, the Fiend may already be close to expiration when the Heroism / Bloodlust lands. Do you use some kind of warning for when a Heroism comes? Many Shamans I've raided with never announce their Heroism / Bloodlust, or hit it instantly when the raid leader calls for it, leaving next to no time to cast the Fiend in advance.

    Lastly, you can't try to do too much. Effective raid composition between the healers is the best way to ensure success. People are often plagued by the desire to be #1 on the meters and try to heal every single incoming damage. This will almost always, unless you are incredibly over geared for the encounter, result in failure. Letting other healers do their job is the most important thing.

    I apologize in advance for the MASSIVE wall of text but there is a fair amount to be said on the issue.
    A wall of text indeed, but your remark is true . And Healing Meters can be nice to have, but it's not about being #1 top dog ... it's a matter of reading it correctly. And in the end, all that matters is if the raid is still alive after the boss is dead.

  20. #20

    Re: Mana Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Fourth: Having a Discipline Priest does not negate the need for Holy shields, just because of Body and Soul.
    However, a disc's shield is far stronger and a disc benefits more by casting a shield so the point is a holy that uses his shield in a raid where he coheals with a disc is acutally hindering the disc priest at doing his job.

    if there's no disc, shield as often as you like - if there's a disc please, pleaaase take your fingers of the button.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •