1. #1

    Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    I was skimming through the topics and couldn't find an answer to my question so I thought I would ask it here.

    I would like to know what is the optimal time to use meta when you only have one opportunity to use it during a boss encounter. Keep in mind this is when blood lust/hero is not being used when in decimation range. If you only have one chance to use meta, when should it be used to maximize dps.

    During blood lust/hero or, while in decimation range.


  2. #2

    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    Hmm, if the boss dies fast enough that you dont get to use a 3 min cooldown twice then using during hero might be better, the last 35% might not last that long.

  3. #3

    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    Hero. No ifs ands or buts.

  4. #4
    The Patient Slotter's Avatar
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    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    Still love when BL is popped on Lana'thel sub 35% after getting bit and with Meta up. The Souls Fires.....just wow.

  5. #5

    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    BL increases haste by 30%, thus increasing dps by 30%. (dps is proprtional to cast speed/base cast time)

    I don't know exactly what the damage increase from normal cast to decimation is exactly, but on a dummy I remember shifting from about 5k without decimation to a little over 7k with it. So an increase of 40%.

    That would suggest that Meta is better used during decimation than BL, but I wouldn't quote those figures, best to do some tests or sim it.


  6. #6
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrodinLB
    Hero. No ifs ands or buts.
    Incorrect. Using meta twice without hero is greater dps overall than once with hero. If the fight is going to last long enough to use it twice, based on prior kills, then use it asap every time. If the fight is going to take long enough to use it once, you use it during Hero/Bloodlust or during Decimation procs.

    Same thing with 3 times vs 2 times + hero. 3 uses is more dps than 2, with one hero.

    R.I.P. YARG

  7. #7

    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    Maybe a strange idea, I don't know... but let's say the conclusion ends up being that it's better to use during Decimation. Would using Meta in a similar fashion as a pre-combat potion be worth anything?

    Assuming optimal timing conditions - let's say you meta 15 seconds before the fight... if the fight lasts 3.5-4min, possibly worth it? In this case Meta would be off CD 2 min and 45 seconds into the fight. This would allow a Meta during Decimation, and CoD improved Meta (and few seconds of meta dps) at the beginning of the fight.

    This would be pretty intricate in execution... so the likelihood of pulling it off correctly may be low.

    Just a thought.

  8. #8

    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    Also, this would be extremely reliant on them length of the fight. It makes sense only if the boss dies the second your 2nd meta is over. If it lives a few seconds longer, you wasted a few seconds of your first meta. If it dies earlier, you changed time with meta active during the Decimation phase into time with meta without decimation, thus again wasting dps.

    So, if you can tell exactly when a boss dies before the fight even starts, it would make sense to use your first meta such that the second would end exactly in that moment. But if you have 5-10 seconds uncertainty, it does not make sense. And in any real situation, the uncertainty is mostly even larger.

    The point of Pre-Combat-Pots is that theyonly start their cd if you are out of combat anytime after using them. Meta does not work this way, so the main advantage in this case is lost.

  9. #9

    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    Does pre-potting really help for demo? I mean, I've never bothered. But I guess there's no harm in doing so.

  10. #10

    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenerena
    Does pre-potting really help for demo? I mean, I've never bothered. But I guess there's no harm in doing so.
    Does using two potions over the length of a boss encounter instead of one help? What do you think?

  11. #11

    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenerena
    Does pre-potting really help for demo? I mean, I've never bothered. But I guess there's no harm in doing so.
    Yes, but not as much as for affliction. The main reason for pre-potting as aff is to allow you to boost corruption's rolling crit, or at least, that's why such a big deal is made of it. On the whole I tend not to pre-pot, since I don't need to on non-progression content and I tend to wipe lots on progression content, and the gain is only slight. Plus my RL has a habit of remembering there was something he wanted to tell us just after our MT preps to pull :P

  12. #12

    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    Assuming there are no outside fight mechanics issues, eg patchwerk fight, and the fight is not going to last long enough for 2 metas, with bloodlust being used early, I would use it during the decimate phase. Using it during decimate should give you the biggest and most reliable increase in dps.

    With that said I can't think of a single fight in ICC or ToC that is even close to this theoretical discussion. Nothing is just a patchwerk fight with no outside fight mechanics and just a straight tank and spank fight. The closest thing I can think of would be festergut if your guild allowed you to be in with the melees.

  13. #13

    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    I can't think of many ICC fights that you can't use it twice. But yeah, if you're sure it will only be once, then time it with Decimate and BL. Otherwise you should be using it as soon as all debuffs are properly applied and then figuring it out from there. It's almost always best to use it as often as possible instead of waiting for BL. There are also certain timings with some bosses that you should pay attention to if you want to maximize use. For instance timing it so you can use it after being bitten on BQ, or making sure it's available for P3 Putricide, or when a high amount of Suppressor's comes to your side on Dreamwalker. Marrowgar is a fun one, use it just before Bone Spikes and hit Immolation. If you do get spiked it will still do damage, if you don't it's a massive gain. Festergut is interesting as well. Move into melee for a spore and hit Meta/Immo, then stay in until the next spore and teleport out of melee.

    There's no cut and dry answer on when to use it. It is pretty cut and dry that you should use it as often as possible though. Just make sure to keep the movement to a minimum. If you need to move for 4+ seconds to use Immolation then you're better off not using it at all.

  14. #14
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    We seem to be migrating from "Do I save Meta for Bloodlust?" into "Do I save Meta for Decimation?". Stop it. Step back a moment and look at the broader picture, which is "Do I save Meta?"

    The answer is still "Do whatever gets you more Metas in the fight". There are very few fights where you blow Bloodlust as soon as the fight starts, and the timing of it may cause you to miss a Meta.

    Example 1: Rotface. You blow BL/Hero ASAP. You should do the same with Meta because chances are it will be up again before the boss dies, thus netting you a Meta during both BL and Decimation

    Example 2: Lana'thel. Depends if you are high on the bite priority list. I'm dead last, so I pop meta immediately then wait until I get bitten near decimation phase. Since the fight has a hard enrage of ~5 minutes, the best I can do is 2 in one fight, thus waiting is ok.

    Example 3: Deathwhisper. Depends how long the first phase lasts. I would kill the first adds asap, pop meta, and then pop it again when she's almost dead, based on how fast my raid kills her. Again, hard enrage of 10 minutes (less on HM) so you have to time it with that. Might be possible to get 3 on Hardmode.

    R.I.P. YARG

  15. #15

    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin
    Example 3: Deathwhisper. Depends how long the first phase lasts. I would kill the first adds asap, pop meta, and then pop it again when she's almost dead, based on how fast my raid kills her.
    For the HM and the 'newer' strategies for her: Wait until the adds are brought to her and use Meta then so that you'll hit as many targets with Immolation as possible and have Meta up when spamming Seed on her.

  16. #16

    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    I really can't imagine any fight will only allow you to use meta once. I mean, you can save it for the first bone spike, or perhaps the first unstable experiment on Putricide. But in my 10man logs the shortest fight we've had was just under four minutes, and even then you can get a second meta in. You have to look at each fight individually. Remember, meta has a 2 minute cooldown with Nemesis. If you pop it right at the beginning, the 2 minutes start from the instant you pop it thus you actually have 1 minute 30 seconds once meta ends until your next one.

    The trick is to use it as often as you can, at the right times. Take Rotface for example. I always wait until the first person gets the mutated infection, so i know it wasn't me, then pop meta. That way I won't pop meta, get selected, then waste the whole thing. If the fight lasts 4 minutes, you can pop two metamorphosis. If you get selected first, you run away, then you get back and pop it. Since there's still maybe 3 minutes or less left, you will get chance to pop it again at the decimation point.

    Of course, this has all probably been said. Personally I like casting it at the start because that is when I get all my procs, cooldowns up etc. I seem to get everything as it is all ready off its ICD. But in reality certain fights do require alot of dps on adds etc.

  17. #17

    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    Several normal mode fights can be done in around two and a half minutes, so depending on timing you'll only get one Meta out of it. Saurfang, Marrowgar and Rotface can all be nuked into oblivion very, very quickly. If you don't burn Meta right at the start you won't get a second one and you can potentially get the second cut short even if you do. I often only get 10-15 seconds out of my second Meta on those fights. Then again, we probably won't normal mode any of those because they're rather easy hardmodes, one gives 277 tokens and one drops a BiS trinket for most casters.

  18. #18

    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    I just want to add the obvious, namely that as with all cooldowns, you should always think about when the dps is important, and when it is not. Taking the professor for example, you will want to have one meta ready in the last phase, since burning him down quickly is more important than, for example, dps in P1. Many fights have similar mechanics, so it should be noted that this should always be the first thing to think about when planning cds.

  19. #19
    Mechagnome Shadowviper's Avatar
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    Re: Question: Meta and when to properly use it.

    Depends on the fight for me. Depends on how long is the fight, When is Hero gonna pop, do i have a special job that fight? I usually try to use it once in the beginning and again if hero is popped in the middle of the fight or towards my Decimation.
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