25 man Frame Rate - Hardware issue?

[Murkuri]

Just checking to see if anyone knows which piece of hardware is my issue in 25 mans before I possibly shell out $1-2k for a new PC. I have a feeling it's the video card, but I do know WoW is not so tough on those usually.

Built top of the line 2 years ago or so. I just reformatted to 64-bit Win7, updated all drivers, only things running are vent/WoW/and G13/15 client.

Hardware:

AMD Phenom 2.3 Ghz quad processor

MSI Platinum K9A2 Mobo http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813130136

2x nVidia 8600GT EVGA 512MB/128-bit(one for each 22" monitor, plenty of power/low temp/good airflow) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130290

4gb (4x1) 1200 DDR2 RAM

7200 RPM HDD




Where is my issue here, if not everywhere? I do have setAffinityMask(or w/e) to 15 so WOW attempts to run off all 4 cores. I get a good 30-50 FPS in 10 mans with full spell/ground effects (no shadows), but when I get into 25 mans I max out in the 15FPS range and usually hover at 10. Also, it seems to make no difference (or < 1.5 FPS) when I turn all details to low and kill all the "memory hog" addons. If I run reports or show stats with nTune(which I hate) or any other program it shows as constantly running at 40-60% RAM usage and no CPU core hits 75%.

Thanks in advance for any assistance provided, I'd much rather upgrade a vid card for $200-400 than build/buy a brand new one and turn the "old" computer into a server.


SIDE QUESTION: Would a small (40-80GB) SSD drive to store WOW game files on help performance in any way? I've been reading about this and alot of things are stored client-side, so I wondered.

[Cilraaz]

Your bottleneck right now is your CPU. That's why you're seeing good framerates in 10 man, but not 25 man. 25 man raids just have so much more information to be processed. That also explains why lowering spell details hasn't improved your performance. Have you tried any of the tips found in the FPS sticky? (edit: Re-reading your post, it looks like you probably have. The only thing I'd suggest is trying to disable your combat log.)

As far as an SSD goes, I'm not completely sold on them as far as price vs performance goes (at least as far as WoW's concerned). You'd see faster load times when first loading into the game or switching between zones. You might also see faster model loading when you hit Dalaran. Otherwise, you're not going to see much performance increase. In a raid, for instance, all of the models needed are loaded from a normal HDD in plenty of time to not affect performance.

[Murkuri]

I've attempted all of the tricks from the sticky (wouldn't have posted if I hadn't) and only saw maybe a 2 FPS increase.

I'll try it again tonight and see if I can even get it up to 20FPS, but if it is a bottleneck in the CPU and I need a new one I should probably just shell out for a new PC in general right? If I can't fix this I'll go for i7 which will need a new MoBo, which will need/I will want DDR3, etc etc.

Thanks for the help.

[nwo]

Your graphics card is about 3 or 4 years old, so I would say that's probably the thing holding you back at the moment. Try upgrading to a 5770 for ~$150, it will be well worth the upgrade. Last time I checked, and it has been quite a while, WoW doesn't really show much of a performance increase with dual cards as opposed to single cards, so your other card is going to waste.

P.S. after googling it, I have found out that WoW indeed does not take advantage of SLI. Kind of an old thread, but I doubt anything has changed since then.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...03679210&sid=1

Once you upgrade your graphics card, your next step will be your CPU which you will probably need to upgrade your motherboard and RAM as well, so it's not really worth going that route. What I would recommend is that you try to overclock your current CPU because that could easily give you a small boost that could make a difference. But that's not as simple as it sounds for someone who has never done it before. But I would definitely get the graphics card first, and you may be all set after that.

[Reciprocity]

May I intercede and ask how a Quad Core 2.3 GHZ Phenom processor is a 'bottle' neck?

I thought a QUAD core is ahead in terms of what wow needs, although I recall reading that WOW cannot fully utilize all cores? Would it better to have faster DUAL cores?

I ask because I have roughly the same Processor and thought it was sufficient. Evidently not...

Thanks.

[Cilraaz]

But I would definitely get the graphics card first, and you may be all set after that.

I doubt that on the basis that he has no framerate issues in 10 man and lowering graphic settings gains no framerate. But I always say that more opinions are better than less.

[Murkuri]

I'm not running in SLI, just separate monitors without burdening 1 card with Dual-DVI. I have done OC before and I can set that back up again, I just always thought it was the graphics cards.

[nwo]

May I intercede and ask how a Quad Core 2.3 GHZ Phenom processor is a 'bottle' neck?

I thought a QUAD core is ahead in terms of what wow needs, although I recall reading that WOW cannot fully utilize all cores? Would it better to have faster DUAL cores?

I ask because I have roughly the same Processor and thought it was sufficient. Evidently not...

Thanks.

Because WoW likes an extremely fast CPU. According to the OP, his CPU usage never goes beyond 75% on any of his 4 cores, which means that WoW is obviously not taking full advantage of all 4 cores. WoW was changed to take full advantage of dual cores in a patch in the past, but that has yet to happen for quad cores as far as I know.

So, to answer your question. I think that a faster dual core would be better for WoW. But you can't look at the raw clock speed values alone when making that comparison.

Edit:
This might be worth a quick read:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...73499400&sid=1

Hi Minimemage,

The game can use more than 2 cores but the other threads do not do anything intensive. You won't notice performance jumps going from dual to quad.

[Cilraaz]

Because WoW likes an extremely fast CPU.

True. WoW will prefer a faster dual core to a slower quad core.

According to the OP, his CPU usage never goes beyond 75% on any of his 4 cores, which means that WoW is obviously not taking full advantage of all 4 cores. WoW was changed to take full advantage of dual cores in a patch in the past, but that has yet to happen for quad cores as far as I know.

False. Taking full advantage of a core doesn't necessarily mean 100% utilization. WoW is fully optimized for multi-core CPUs (any number of cores) and spreads its threads out appropriately. The issue is that the bulk of processing needs occur within the program's main thread. This is what makes it so that more cores aren't automatically better. However, with newer OS's (like Windows 7), threads are being spread around better. With Windows 7, a single thread can be worked on by more than one core to help even out load (to the best of my knowledge...if I'm wrong, someone please correct me).

[Murkuri]

I doubt that on the basis that he has no framerate issues in 10 man and lowering graphic settings gains no framerate. But I always say that more opinions are better than less.

I'll definitely try all this stuff tonight. OC the processor and kill off combat log and other data caching addons. It's never really bee a spell effects issue, so maybe I'll see the Framerate increase I want. When I first built the computer, still in BT days I was easily frapsing our 25 man encounters at 30FPS, but since then it's fallen and fallen with WOTLK and the new additions.

I'll see what I can get when I'm back at home tonight and post some data in the morning. If I can't get the performance I want, I guess it's not a terrible thing to get a new computer. Probably better than wasting $500 on an iPad, which I will do if I don't get a new Pc.

[nwo]

False. Taking full advantage of a core doesn't necessarily mean 100% utilization. WoW is fully optimized for multi-core CPUs (any number of cores) and spreads its threads out appropriately. The issue is that the bulk of processing needs occur within the program's main thread. This is what makes it so that more cores aren't automatically better. However, with newer OS's (like Windows 7), threads are being spread around better. With Windows 7, a single thread can be worked on by more than one core to help even out load (to the best of my knowledge...if I'm wrong, someone please correct me).

Well my point was the following:
WoW utilizes the cores, but does not take full advantage of them. In other words, WoW puts them to work, but this hardly yields any performance difference versus using a CPU with less cores. So as far as WoW is concerned, there are no advantages/performance differences in using more cores as opposed to less. This would probably best be tested on one of the Intel Core i series CPUs. Enable turbo boost and compare your FPS with 2 cores vs. your fps with 4 cores.

[Cilraaz]

Well my point was the following:
WoW utilizes the cores, but does not take full advantage of them. In other words, WoW puts them to work, but this hardly yields any performance difference versus using a CPU with less cores. So as far as WoW is concerned, there are no advantages/performance differences in using more cores as opposed to less. This would probably best be tested on one of the Intel Core i series CPUs. Enable turbo boost and compare your FPS with 2 cores vs. your fps with 4 cores.

I agree, except he said that none of his cores were over 75%. I'd assume that to mean his cores were in the 60-70% range. Over dual core instead of quad core, that'd be 120-140% per core.

Your logic is sound, so I'm not arguing that. I just don't think it applies in this case. In the case of my CPU, I'm getting about 40% usage per core, so I could shut down 2 cores and theoretically run on 2 cores at 80% per core. The downside to applying that to an i5/i7 CPU is that they are basically made to be overclocked by anyone with basic computer knowledge, so turbo should be disabled on a lot of them.

Oh, and sorry for misunderstanding you the first time around.

[Murkuri]

I tried all this stuff last night running some benchmarks and stuff. OC-ing the processor (AMD Phenom 9600-Black Ed. since I didn't know the exact model yesterday). The OCing took alot of time and didn't increase performance significantly, though alot of the articles I read said OCing that processor is somewhat a waste of time.

Took out the combat log completely, which I rarely use and that helped a bit this time, turning off recount didn't do much though. We were clearing to LK in 10 man and the first 7 bosses I left it off, last 4 I put it on. Not much difference.

I'll keep working on this, but in the long run it's probably best to just do a complete overhaul.

If you all have any other suggestions/ideas let me know. When I actually have a full day this weekend to mess around I'll try and juice up all the components and see what happens.

[Cilraaz]

Have you tried Game Booster? It will shut down any unnecessary background services and processes (you get to pick and choose the processes, so it won't kill your browser, etc). It's essentially 1 button for turn off and 1 button to turn everything back on. I use it routinely on my laptop and had used it on one of my older desktops, and in both cases it resulted in a decent framerate gain.

If you do decide to try it, make sure that you don't just blow through the install. I believe it has a Yahoo! Toolbar or something similar that it will install if you don't uncheck the option.

[Murkuri]

I'll give it a go, but I just reformatted 2 weeks ago and I literally only have WOW, google Chrome, AVG Antivirus, Vent, FRAPS, and Adobe suite on my computer. But anything is worth a shot.

I'm pretty good at the software side of computers, but a newcomer to the hardware side of things, hence I need some help. I built that PC a while back with the best parts availible but without thought of how they work with WOW and I reallly regret that. So there's some advice for those building a computer. If it's for WOW - build it for WOW.