Glyph of Flame Shock changes.

[Deleted]

I'm assuming it'll work the same way that our other (elemental) crit modifier talents work. CSD is calculated first:

1.5 (base modifier) * 1.03 (CSD) = 1.545 total crit damage = 0.545 extra damage

That is wrong its 1.5 (base) + 0.03 (CSD) = 1.53 NOT 1.545. Therefore the rest of your calcs fall at that point.

[Zamir]

That is wrong its 1.5 (base) + 0.03 (CSD) = 1.53 NOT 1.545. Therefore the rest of your calcs fall at that point.

Are you sure, Levva? All the caster theorycraft I've ever seen assumes a multiplicative relationship between base and CSD. I don't know at what point this relationship was established, but it was used by Bink in SEIC and I know it's used by mage and warlock theorycrafters. My WoL parses also put damage of spell/totem crits much closer to 2.09 than 2.06.

[Tiolith]

One thing is for sure, we'll certainly be sticking with our Lightning Bolt glyphs.
But must have missed these patch notes...
So let me get this straight, from next patch Flame Shock will
- be able to crit without any glyph, and
- be affected by haste, meaning same damage remains, but DoT length decreased?

[Deleted]

Are you sure, Levva? All the caster theorycraft I've ever seen assumes a multiplicative relationship between base and CSD. I don't know at what point this relationship was established, but it was used by Bink in SEIC and I know it's used by mage and warlock theorycrafters. My WoL parses also put damage of spell/totem crits much closer to 2.09 than 2.06.

Perhaps the way I expressed it wasn't great (it was actually very misleading) but yes its a 3% crit multiplier so it is 1.03 as a multiplier however base crit damage with 5/5 Elemental Fury is 2.00 and 2.00 * 1.03 = 2.06 not 2.09!!

[gringo]

One thing is for sure, we'll certainly be sticking with our Lightning Bolt glyphs.
But must have missed these patch notes...
So let me get this straight, from next patch Flame Shock will
- be able to crit without any glyph, and
- be affected by haste, meaning same damage remains, but DoT length decreased?

Yes. This is currently the state on the 3.3.3 PTR.

[Deleted]

Hmmmmm. Wait this is SPELL damage - DOH!! Oh forget it its Friday its been a long week.

[Zamir]

Perhaps the way I expressed it wasn't great (it was actually very misleading) but yes its a 3% crit multiplier so it is 1.03 as a multiplier however base crit damage with 5/5 Elemental Fury is 2.00 and 2.00 * 1.03 = 2.06 not 2.09!!

So you're saying that the 3% multiplies the total damage of the critical strike as follows:
( base crit damage * elemental fury modifier ) * CSD
1.5*2*1.03-1 = 2.06

What I'm saying is that the multiplier is applied to the base damage of the critical strike, which is then further multiplied by talents etc:
( base crit damage * CSD ) * ( elemental fury modifier )
1+(1.5*1.03-1)*2 = 2.09

It's the latter method which is used in caster theorycraft. Essentially the latter method says "CSD gives an extra 3% damage to spell crits, and elemental fury is a 100% bonus to the spell crit modifier". Additional talents/etc apply additively in the second part of the formula.

Edit reply: Well, I did wonder... I won't delete this as I suppose it helps clarify why 3.3.3 Glyph of Flame Shock is not expected to be great for elemental.

[storeposer]

It sucks a bit that when hero is up i need to recast fs before lvb every time

[whowherewhat?]

It sucks a bit that when hero is up i need to recast fs before lvb every time

I sincerely hope this is exaggeration because if not this makes the fs-haste change a double-edged sword at high haste levels...

[Deleted]

I sincerely hope this is exaggeration because if not this makes the fs-haste change a double-edged sword at high haste levels...

50% haste (1269 and raid buffs) + BL/Heroism = 95% haste.
So with this your FS would stay on the target for 9sec. Subtract the 1sec from FS-CD and the 1sec Casttime of LvB and you're looking at 7sec from finishing LvB to the end of FS.

Now... this is without T10 4pc. If you have that, you'll be able to cast 2-3 LvBs. (depending on how it affects FS)

[Boonzorsx]

Glyphs of: Lightning bolt, lava and flame shock ( if ur over 3k sp self buffed, )
If not, go with: LB, Lava, ToW imo best choice

[evan_s]

50% haste (1269 and raid buffs) + BL/Heroism = 95% haste.
So with this your FS would stay on the target for 9sec. Subtract the 1sec from FS-CD and the 1sec Casttime of LvB and you're looking at 7sec from finishing LvB to the end of FS.

Now... this is without T10 4pc. If you have that, you'll be able to cast 2-3 LvBs. (depending on how it affects FS)

When did bloodlust get buffed from 30% to 45%?

[CookieEater]

When did bloodlust get buffed from 30% to 45%?

I think he stacked multiplicative... but either way that's wrong yeah.

[Zamir]

I think he stacked multiplicative... but either way that's wrong yeah.

It's not wrong, that's how haste effects stack. With 50% haste and Bloodlust/Heroism, Flame Shock's DoT would last 9.23 seconds. So DaDimi is correct.

1.5*1.3 = 1.95
18/1.95 = 9.23

The higher DPS dealt by a hasted Flame Shock makes casting it more often worthwhile. So while yes, it does "cost" a bit of DPS in the form of extra GCDs here and there, it delivers more extra DPS through the faster damage dealing than it costs in extra GCDs.

Glyphs of: Lightning bolt, lava and flame shock ( if ur over 3k sp self buffed, )
If not, go with: LB, Lava, ToW imo best choice

That's a very interesting suggestion, but it makes no sense Firstly, it'd take over 7000 spellpower for Glyph of Flame Shock (3.3.3 version) to be better than Glyph of ToW, and it already takes well over 5000 spellpower for Glyph of Lava to be better than Glyph of ToW - and even then this number actually increases as haste and crit increase, meaning that at BiS levels Glyph of Lava is waaaaay behind other glyphs for DPS value.

If Glyph of Flame Shock remains as a 60% boost to tick crit damage, and if this 60% is applied in the expected way, then glyphs ordered by DPS value would be:

1. Lightning Bolt, ~280 DPS
2. Totem of Wrath, ~180 DPS
3. Lava, ~130 DPS == Flametongue, ~130 DPS
4. Flame Shock, ~80 DPS
5. Elemental Mastery, ~50 DPS

Flametongue would overtake Lava in some circumstances at highest gear levels. Break even would be:
DEP of 2% crit / (DEP of Glyph of Lava / total spellpower)

So we'll have to see how the glyph ends up.

[storeposer]

I copyed my toon to the ptr i have around 960 unbuffed haste when my bizuri totem is at max stack and i pop hero my fs has around 9,? sec duration

[whowherewhat?]

Zamir, so you're saying that even with the changes to FS and the glyph, the glyph itself comes out much much lower than Lava/Flametongue? I suppose I've been focusing on the Lava vs. ToW debate too long to realize that FS glyph could drop below the both of them : /

[Zamir]

Zamir, so you're saying that even with the changes to FS and the glyph, the glyph itself comes out much much lower than Lava/Flametongue? I suppose I've been focusing on the Lava vs. ToW debate too long to realize that FS glyph could drop below the both of them : /

Eh, let me clarify. Currently the Flame Shock glyph allows FS ticks to crit, which is usually worth upwards of 150 DPS and is one of our best glyph options. But on the 3.3.3 PTR, Flame Shock ticks will be able to crit without any glyphs - it will just be a normal part of the spell. This essentially gives us a free 150 DPS and frees up a glyph slot.

As this makes the current incarnation of the Flame Shock glyph redundant, they are proposing changing it to increase the critical damage of FS ticks by 60%. It's this version of the glyph which is worth ~80 DPS.

Thus at present, Glyph of Flame Shock is usually second only to Glyph of Lightning Bolt and is a safe choice. But if the current 3.3.3 PTR changes go live, that will change.

[whowherewhat?]

Thus at present, Glyph of Flame Shock is usually second only to Glyph of Lightning Bolt and is a safe choice. But if the current 3.3.3 PTR changes go live, that will change.

sweet, i'm always a fan of the lava glyph when its a good choice XD

[gubb]

Flametongue would overtake Lava in some circumstances at highest gear levels. Break even would be:
DEP of 2% crit / (DEP of Glyph of Lava / total spellpower

You mentioned that Flametongue will overtake Lava in some circumstances at highest gear levels. Thus not all circumstances.
Which raises me to my question: How do I know if Lava or FT is better for me(assuming i have high gear lvl,264-251ish gear)

[Madzter]

I chose to vote other, because I use Lighting Bolt, Flameshock and Lava glyphs as it will prove to be the highest DPS combo. Yes ToW will give you 84 SP, but is 84 SP better than 60% increased FS Crit damage, or 10% increased SP benefit to LvB?

In the short answer, No. In the long answer, Lava and Flameshock's combos out weigh using ToW's 84 SP when compared and calculated.

At my current stats, my Flameshock generally crits for around 2k. Calculating just the 60% increased crit damage, it increases the crits by 1200 damage, putting them at 4.2k

For Lava, i multiplied my raid buffed(unproc'd trinkets or rings) SP, it being around 3500 by10% and got 350. So rougly, my LvB hits for 350 more spellpower with that glyph.

Now IMO, those 2 outweigh a flat 84 SP buff. Anyone else agree?

Well I don't agree with you on that one. I don't have the math but the thing is LB is still your main dmg spell by far, and losing the 84 sp on each LB would be horrible. I mean 60% more dmg on your FS crits, a spell that does the least of our dmg can't compensate for the loss of 84sp on all your spells. So if you would like to replace a glyph, don't replace Tow.