(tank) Buff Warriors and DKS but Nerf Pallies ?!?!?

[grevari]

Don't even start me on this...

Paladins Self heal at will? the only heal we have is Judgement of Light which im pretty sure every other class in the raid gets the same benefit.

Only part I will argue with... don't forget LoH. your ohh sh!t button. from 1hp to full in 1 cast. no one has that. If I had an ohh sh!t button like THAT... well lets just say I don't think I would ever die. I do understand it is on a cooldown so don't get all bent out of shape about that.

I will say this again... stop qq-ing because you don't have the best at every aspect of a tank. You should still be able to hold your spot in a raid. If not then I would suggest a diffrent guild anyway, cause they do not like you for either a dumb reason(they suck and need all the help they can get), or a smart reason(you suck).

Also to clearify something... I don't want LoH as a warrior. That would make the class too easy to play. I like having the challenge. Just as if I were a pally, I wouldn't want Enraged regen or whatever ability a pally likes from a warrior. It is all about having something different to work with... otherwise all the bosses would be the same, if every tank had the same abilities. I enjoy tanking a boss that is more suited for a DK/Pally/Bear tank. It presents different challenges for me as a warrior that keep the game fun.

[iglocska]

Only part I will argue with... don't forget LoH. your ohh sh!t button. from 1hp to full in 1 cast. no one has that. If I had an ohh sh!t button like THAT... well lets just say I don't think I would ever die. I do understand it is on a cooldown so don't get all bent out of shape about that.

I will say this again... stop qq-ing because you don't have the best at every aspect of a tank. You should still be able to hold your spot in a raid. If not then I would suggest a diffrent guild anyway, cause they do not like you for either a dumb reason(they suck and need all the help they can get), or a smart reason(you suck).

Also to clearify something... I don't want LoH as a warrior. That would make the class too easy to play. I like having the challenge. Just as if I were a pally, I wouldn't want Enraged regen or whatever ability a pally likes from a warrior. It is all about having something different to work with... otherwise all the bosses would be the same, if every tank had the same abilities. I enjoy tanking a boss that is more suited for a DK/Pally/Bear tank. It presents different challenges for me as a warrior that keep the game fun.

Using lay on hands basically won't allow you to use shield wall for 2 minutes, no prot pally ever uses this skill since it got nerfed apart from when the healer goes afk in a heroic. Please if you want to preach about how OP cooldowns of other classes are at least have a slight clue what you're talking about.

I'm tanking on both a warr and a pally, both equally geared. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. and imho this buff to warrs was needed, but the nerf to pallies a short while ago wasn't.

[Bears_are_real]

Using lay on hands basically won't allow you to use shield wall for 2 minutes, no prot pally ever uses this skill since it got nerfed apart from when the healer goes afk in a heroic. Please if you want to preach about how OP cooldowns of other classes are at least have a slight clue what you're talking about.

I'm tanking on both a warr and a pally, both equally geared. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. and imho this buff to warrs was needed, but the nerf to pallies a short while ago wasn't.

This,people who complain about LOH dont know how its used usually.I end up using LOH on healers that forgot to heal themselves more then I use it on myself.

[Kethlan]

So you are saying that paladins wont use LoH to save their own life...even if their death means the raid wipes? I doubt that VERY much.

Yes, paladins shield wall and LoH are both limited by forbearance, but dead is dead. But then again, AD saves you if you dont press it.

How many times have warriors gotten low on health, popped Last Stand and then had full life less than half a second later. boom Last Stand was wasted because we pressed it too soon. Or if we fear that, we press it too late..dead. AD removes the decision making from the process. And for those "well it can only save you once every two minutes" people. Last Stand has a CD too. If we burn a glyph on it...we can even get it down to the same CD as AD. If we dont its LONGER.

Warriors need to have more health than pallies. That increases WARRIORS tanking ability, it doesnt reduce yours. 3% stam isnt going to make your guild bench you for a warrior. If they were likely to do that, they already would have benched you for the druid anyway.

And also, paladins can do enough threat that if the healers were weak, they could switch to Seal of Light on top of Judgement of Light, to boost their self healing. to get even similar levels of self healing, we would have to abandon half our toolbox to the fury tree to get BT.

I could do a breakdown of all the strengths and weakness of both tanks if i needed to, i do have both warrior tank and tankadin.

[Prentice]

So you are saying that paladins wont use LoH to save their own life...even if their death means the raid wipes? I doubt that VERY much.

Yes, paladins shield wall and LoH are both limited by forbearance, but dead is dead. But then again, AD saves you if you dont press it.

How many times have warriors gotten low on health, popped Last Stand and then had full life less than half a second later. boom Last Stand was wasted because we pressed it too soon. Or if we fear that, we press it too late..dead. AD removes the decision making from the process. And for those "well it can only save you once every two minutes" people. Last Stand has a CD too. If we burn a glyph on it...we can even get it down to the same CD as AD. If we dont its LONGER.

Warriors need to have more health than pallies. That increases WARRIORS tanking ability, it doesnt reduce yours. 3% stam isnt going to make your guild bench you for a warrior. If they were likely to do that, they already would have benched you for the druid anyway.

And also, paladins can do enough threat that if the healers were weak, they could switch to Seal of Light on top of Judgement of Light, to boost their self healing. to get even similar levels of self healing, we would have to abandon half our toolbox to the fury tree to get BT.

I could do a breakdown of all the strengths and weakness of both tanks if i needed to, i do have both warrior tank and tankadin.

You are missing the point by quite a bit here. The 3% buff to warriors wasn't a direct nerf to pallys and likely would not have been game changing. The fact that your buff is coming right after we took a 4% stam nerf does. Also, pally tanks DO NOT use LoH on themselves unless its a 5man heroic or soloing.

[Cardolan]

So you are saying that paladins wont use LoH to save their own life...even if their death means the raid wipes? I doubt that VERY much.

If I can use Lay on Hands, I can use Divine Protection and likely pop one of my trinkets (if not both). If I'm so low on health that Lay on Hands would be worth it, and not receiving any heals at all, chances are the raid is already wiping because the healers are dead. Your point about wasting Last Stand applies equally to Lay on Hands.

I can't think of a situation whilst raiding Icecrown Citadel where I've needed to use a cooldown and Lay on Hands would have been the better choice.

I don't think these changes put Paladins in a bad place when it comes to tanking ability, but I do think any discussions about who has the better cooldowns are pointless. We have different tools, they work in different ways, stop trying to compare them.

[Bears_are_real]

I don't think these changes put Paladins in a bad place when it comes to tanking ability, but I do think any discussions about who has the better cooldowns are pointless. We have different tools, they work in different ways, stop trying to compare them.

Thank you!

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Stop complaining, you are overpowered in every spec, probably the most overpowered HYBRID class.

i play warrior, but why on earth would a pally or drood tank be comforted by the fact that they are a hybrid class? "My raid just wiped because i died, but thats all right because i could stop hitting the boss and throw a few heals out! sure i would go out of mana and die because of loosing avoidance but look at all the possibilities! yay! the world is my oyster!

[Doomwise]

Warrior's lack of self heal??
[Enraged Regeneration]

Lol, like that will make a difference on a boss encounter. Besides, it requires, consumes and prevents all enrage effects for the duration, I know that the 10% more dps isn't crucial, but it DOES make a difference, don't even argue with me, if you're telling me 10 equals 0, go back to school.

I don't think these changes put Paladins in a bad place when it comes to tanking ability, but I do think any discussions about who has the better cooldowns are pointless. We have different tools, they work in different ways, stop trying to compare them.

Exactly. This isn't a proper nerf which throws Palladins into some sort of noob pit, it just puts them a bit closer to other tanks. Warriors will now have slightly more hp, Palladins have AD, DK's and Bears have their own stuff, the tanking ability will barely be felt, if at all.

[Bigzoman18]

Love all of the arguements but the fact of the matter is this is a much needed buff that willl get the devolpers one step closer to balencing the tanking experience.

Currently on my server paladin tanks are dominant. I barely know any other Main spec tank other then a paladin. Why is that? Because paladins are OVERPOWERED. This is nothing more than the devolpers trying to even out the playing field. And why are paladins upset? you guys have a in built last stand, excellent survibilaty, really good single target dps. Hell After stating all of this I wish i would of rolled a paladin tank rather then a warrior

[assilley]

Pally tanks are THEEE ultimate OT to warriors. We generate more threat, so chuck vigilance on us.. My warrior mate loves me being his OT because he reckons he cant stand their and auto swing and has no problems whatsoever. My druids guild also has War MT/Pal OT set up

LoH as everyone knows causes us forbearance. very risky to use if we need to use other abilitys DP/ bubble Sac which can be far more raid beneficial. So youse your oh shit on the MT or healers giving someone else an extra life.

Hand of sacrifice.. xferring dmg from the MT to you to give the healers a break, especially if beaconed.

Now unless you have two pally tanks who can do this to each other, which i dont recomend as i think its a good balance having different specs (Commanding Shout FTW), most of this raid utility is wasted on Paladins being the MT.

[Elamahpla]

What Blizzard SHOULD have done was nerf the health/stam prot paladins gain. At the moment it's something like 12.3 health/stam. So even endgame after the 4% HP nerf, paladins will still have high health pools.

[Ganoes]

so at patch 3.3 they nerfed Pally tank health by 4% which at the time it was said that it was to put us more in line with the other tanks' HP and I was kind of fine with the nerf for that reason...

they even gave 2% HP to DKs who kind of needed it....

but now... they're giving 3% to Warriors next patch... if they're getting buffed in HP then WHY THE F*K were we nerfed in the first place if they're just gonna raise the others up more.



and here's the patch note i'm refering to:

Warrior (Forums / Talent Calculator)
Protection

• Vitality: Now boosts Stamina by 3/6/9%, up from 2/4/6%. Strength and expertise benefits have not changed.

Warriors needed buffs.
DKs needed buffs.
Paladins needed nerfs.

This is pretty easy to understand. Tanks weren't balanced, Blizzard is trying to balance them. We were OP, warriors and DKs were UP. Druids are kinda OP as well but no one plays them so Blizz hasn't bothered with it yet.

[Ganoes]

Well, pallys are by far and large the easiest tank to hold aggro w/ (multiple targets, at least), have the highest by far end game tank DPS, plus their survivability is amazing, not quite on par w/ warriors, but, still way better than DK's. The dev's are trying to balance the tanks out, because warriors need to work harder to keep aggro, and have such miserably low DPS (comparatively), they get better survivability. It's most likely just a band-aid till the overhauls they're going to do in Caty, as I don't see them really doing anything major to fix the balancing problems this late in the expansion's lifespan.

Not true, paladins have much more survivability than warriors. Not sure where you get the idea that warriors have more but it's absolutely wrong.

[Ganoes]

yeah but its unfair to nerf pallies to put them on down to everyone elses lvl then to buff the others to put them above pallies

And there's the issue. The nerf to pallies didn't put them down to everyone else's level. It wasn't nearly severe enough of a nerf.

The true solution is to remove Ardent Defender completely. Just remove the talent from the game and give us something interactive instead. AD is a crutch.

[seam]

(tank) Buff weak tanks but Nerf overly strong tanks ?!?!?

[bloodstrider]

I both have an 80 geared Pally tank and a 80 semi-geared warrior.

The buff to warriors was needed, and at first I disagreed with the nerf to pally's but my HP is still super high. Lets be honest warriors do not carry around librams, sigils, or idols (whatever druids carry), all they have is a stat throwing weapon. Warrior probably cannot reach passive block cap like pally's do with holy shield, (only every minute with Defend talent), do not have sacred shield (arguable holy pally's can cast it on them), only 2 cooldowns compared to pally's 3 (only with Hand of Salvation Glyph). Does not provide sanctuary or any other blessings, etc...

Also I fail to see this argument between warriors being harder then pally's, the only time a warrior is probably harder (and more enjoyable) to tank with is when multi-targeting; in that situation, yes Paladin tanks are easier to tank with. In single target targets, spamming HS is not hard while doing other respective abilities; neither is GBC rotating with a pally.

Edit: TL/DR: Buff to warrior was needed, Pally's are fine.

[Deleted]

Tank, which is skill can play any tank class without distinction, any tank can be better than pala. It depends only on how who can push the buttons 7 +. Paladins have one advantage, and here that they could afford to make mistakes, pala tank when not use the CD at the right time -> Argent Defender help him, but its all ... Other tanks must know what and how and when they make a mistake, it will cause wipe in most cases.

Sorry for my english. Iam Czech.

[ProphetNoata]

Tank, which is skill can play any tank class without distinction, any tank can be better than pala. It depends only on how who can push the buttons 7 +. Paladins have one advantage, and here that they could afford to make mistakes, pala tank when not use the CD at the right time -> Argent Defender help him, but its all ... Other tanks must know what and how and when they make a mistake, it will cause wipe in most cases.

sorry sir but that was pretty incoherent english

[iglocska]

So you are saying that paladins wont use LoH to save their own life...even if their death means the raid wipes? I doubt that VERY much.

Yes, paladins shield wall and LoH are both limited by forbearance, but dead is dead. But then again, AD saves you if you dont press it.

How many times have warriors gotten low on health, popped Last Stand and then had full life less than half a second later. boom Last Stand was wasted because we pressed it too soon. Or if we fear that, we press it too late..dead. AD removes the decision making from the process. And for those "well it can only save you once every two minutes" people. Last Stand has a CD too. If we burn a glyph on it...we can even get it down to the same CD as AD. If we dont its LONGER.

Warriors need to have more health than pallies. That increases WARRIORS tanking ability, it doesnt reduce yours. 3% stam isnt going to make your guild bench you for a warrior. If they were likely to do that, they already would have benched you for the druid anyway.

And also, paladins can do enough threat that if the healers were weak, they could switch to Seal of Light on top of Judgement of Light, to boost their self healing. to get even similar levels of self healing, we would have to abandon half our toolbox to the fury tree to get BT.

I could do a breakdown of all the strengths and weakness of both tanks if i needed to, i do have both warrior tank and tankadin.

I guess that's the difference between us, I have both a warrior and a paladin tank, both equally geared. No a paladin won't use LoH on himself since SW is the stronger CD (when bosses hit for half your total health you won't use an instant full heal that saves you for about 2 seconds when you could get 12 seconds of shield wall). Also, my guild won't ofc bench me, I have been the MT for a pretty long time in there, however I do consider swapping to my warrior for the main raids with the recent changes.