Mate kicked for no reason - what would you have done?

[Cannstatt]

So here's the deal: (Wall of Text INC)

Over the last couple of weeks, some guildmates of mine (well, actually some of them ex-guildmates, but that's irrelevant here) and me had been part of an inter-guild 25-man ICC raid, comprised of members of about 5 different guilds on our relatively low-pop realm (Todeswache-EU). We were doing good, but not great - we usually managed the 1st four bosses just fine, but were unable to beat Festergut (due to hitting the enrage timer) or Rotface (due to... stupidity, I guess... people dying unnecessarily). Even so, things were going as well as you could hope, considering raid setup, average gear level, and people's skill.

Now comes the 'fun' part: the main of one of my ex-guildmates mentioned above, who played his lock alt in this raid, is in the #2 raid guild on our realm, and as such, he knows all the encounters inside out, while most others (including the RL) were still trying to grasp the encounter mechanics. While he had actually kept really quiet up to that point (the only thing he'd usually say was that he'd go grab another beer from the fridge... a big mistake, as we were to find out later...), he spoke up in vent to explain his raid's tactics on Rotface, which were (rather rudely IMO) rebuked by the RL "We do it our way.". Regardless, he kept his calm and did his best, continuously ranking 1-5 in damage done, never wiping the raid, never actually doing anything wrong, while others kept dying in fires/doing crappy DPS. To be exact, 4 of the top 6 DPS were "my people", as well as the top 3 healers and one tank.

Now when the invites for last week's raid went out (via the in-game calendar), we found that our mate had not received one. Obviously, we thought he'd just been forgotten, especially since the invites weren't done by the RL himself, but by a guy we had actually had good relations with. So my GL (one of the healers mentioned above) inquired what had happened three days before the raid, and the guy told her he didn't know really, and that he'd check it out with the RL. Come raid day, he finally had the answer: our mate's invitation had been cancelled by the RL himself. He didn't know why exactly, but that's the way it was.

My GL immediately cancelled her invitation out of protest. I, on the other hand, felt that it was unfair towards the ~15 uninvolved people to cancel on such short notice and accepted the invite, along with my remaining (ex-)guildmates, intending to find out the reason why one of the raid's most experienced players had been removed without an apparent reason. So I joined the raid, said hello, and stated that 1. kicking good players without reason is unacceptable, 2. I was only there because I felt committed to the ~15 uninvolved people and 3. unless things were cleared up, they'd have to find themselves another healer.

Here's where I think I made a mistake: the RL asked me to logg on Vent and he'd explain his reasons. I, however, was in TS3 with my mates, arguing on how to proceed, and declined, stating that he didn't have to explain it to me but to the lock, to which the priest "Co-RL" piped up why I was making "such a wave" If I didn't care myself. This made me furious, kind of derailing my argument with the actual RL, who had meanwhile posted his reason for kicking our mate:
He was, qoute "continuously stoned and unable to comply with RL instructions" end quote. We were like... wtf? ???

Firstly, he was never stoned while raiding, only having 3-4 beers over the course of a raid, secondly, he never did anything harmful for the raid. He was constantly near the top of the meter, always switched targets wherever needed, never pulled aggro, never died in fires, nothing. If anything, the tank (his best mate IRL) was the one that truly was stoned most of the time while raiding... :P In contrast, the "co-RL" kept dying in fires, sometimes as often as three times in a single Marrow'gar fight (SS->BR-> :-X). The thing that irked us the most, however, was that they didn't even tell him that he had been kicked at all, let alone why... There had been no warning, no "please stop being stoned and listen to the RL", nothing. What did they expect? That we'd suck it up and continue?

In the meantime, my other mates had joined in, namely the tank, who offered to overlook the RL's 'mistake' if the lock were invited again the following week (yes, being stoned actually has a mellowing effect... :P) and the ret, who wasn't quite as mellow... The RL, however, was not to be argued with. He kicked another of his top healers (me), one of his tanks, and his top damage dealer out of the raid, after which the third healer quit as well, leaving only one of my mates (the other hadn't signed up that week due to RL reasons). He had kept out of the argument for the most part and still felt committed to those uninvolved, so he stayed (as would I have done, if the RL hadn't kicked me), but stated that he wouldn't raid with them in future. So the final toll of the evening was: one tank, the top three healers and two experienced DPS down (+2 who wouldn't sign up in future)... suffice to say that the raid didn't get very far that evening... ;D

But still, after a week of contemplating, I'm still not sure if we did the right thing by, in effect, rage-quitting over the issue... it felt right then and there, but the fact is: finding a good 25man raid is hard on our realm, and every week not doing 25man ICC is precious Emblems of Frost lost. I raid ICC 10man quite successfully as a feral tank with our realm's #4 guild, but the only real upgrades I can still get are from 25man, and the tank spots there are taken... it sucks not to be able to get a shot at those upgrades anymore just because Person X (the RL) doesn't like Person Y (my mate), and one thing leads to another... I've even considered contacting the RL and try to restore the status quo ante bellum, but while he might even be willing, I know most of my guildmates would not, as they took the issue much more personal than I did. So here I am now, stuck without a 25man ICC raid...


TL;DR: A mate of mine got kicked from our 25man ICC for a phony reason, even though he had done nothing wrong. Me and a few other mates (the raid's top 3 healers and 3 of the top DPS) got kicked as well for sticking up for him/left in protest. Now we're stuck without a 25man on a relatively low-pop realm, while the RL has weakened his raid considerably.

What would you have done in such a situation? Would you have stuck up for your mate or would you have swallowed your anger and continued on?
And what you do in my stead now?

[Dragendor]

I think i like you . I would have done EXACTLY the same. I even left a guild once because we we're raiding ulduar,and me and my friends were laughing on vent and he was like: This is no place for fun,its a place for progress. So,basically,he told me raiding wasn't suposed to be fun. Well,if my guildy/friend would get kicked for what retarded reason what so ever,i would have left.Good job

[Ikkatsu]

I've left many guilds/raids because of reasons stated in your original post.

Why stay in a guild/raid, just for loot, when you feel that you cannot speak your mind?

The game isn't about loot, it's about having fun... and if you can't have fun for fear of being left out of the loot... then find another.

In your situation, being on a low-pop realm... get your guild to transfer to a medium pop server and problem solved.

[Deleted]

There are possibly better ways you could have dealt with this, but that's not to say you did anything wrong. Maybe it would have been better had you spoken to the RL in vent, and you could maybe have resolved the issue quietly, but equally you might not have done.

You shouldn't worry about screwing over the rest of the raiders. The RL did that when he took the decision to kick anyone who basically offended his pride, as far as I can see. I reckon you were right to take issue with it. Ragequitting will always leave you feeling a bit foolish if you're not a complete twat, but it sounds like it was that, be kicked, or let the guy walk over you, so I wouldn't worry.

[Marriage]

I am sure the RL would agree with everything in this account.




Oh wait, it might be biased you say?

if a RL drops someone, regardless of their reasons, protesting by not joining, or refusing to go on vent to hear it out is rude. you since found out the RL reasons were not true in your eyes, but not having a dialogue was your fatal flaw. A RL has to make many tough decisions, and some of them ill thought out, but they have to be made sometimes. your mate may have been a useful assett and could have added to the raid, but if the RL has an issue with them then the only way to get through it is to either talk it or gquit.

i appreciate the RL may have power tripped, and it spiralled from there, but nerdraging solves nothing. What I, as a RL, also resent is the numbers. Putting things like 'top 5 dps' or 'top healers' would automatically make me just facepalm. Self worth isn't a great personal feature.

Perhaps it's time you starting thinking less about how much you could add to their raid and think more about how the whole raid could improve?

[ItachiZaku]

I love stirring the pot once it is brewing. I'll keep my mouth shut, but once a RL or officer or someone steps out of line, the flood gates are open and shit gets live.

I agree with the others, you did what needed to be done. Screw that RL and his bunk ass crew.

[starvethedead]

All you drama queens take the game entirely too seriously.

[Cannstatt]

I am sure the RL would agree with everything in this account.

Oh wait, it might be biased you say?

if a RL drops someone, regardless of their reasons, protesting by not joining, or refusing to go on vent to hear it out is rude. you since found out the RL reasons were not true in your eyes, but not having a dialogue was your fatal flaw. A RL has to make many tough decisions, and some of them ill thought out, but they have to be made sometimes. your mate may have been a useful assett and could have added to the raid, but if the RL has an issue with them then the only way to get through it is to either talk it or gquit.

Sure it may be biased, but that does not change the fact (!) that there was no reason given at all. We were completely taken by surprise by the decision, heck there had been no tensions whatsoever before that. Even the guy doing the invites was clueless. He didn't talk first, he just kicked him. That is rude. As I said, it probably was a mistake not to get in vent, but the dialogue we had in /ra was enough. He had absolutely no case whatsoever.

i appreciate the RL may have power tripped, and it spiralled from there, but nerdraging solves nothing. What I, as a RL, also resent is the numbers. Putting things like 'top 5 dps' or 'top healers' would automatically make me just facepalm. Self worth isn't a great personal feature.

I know what you mean, I'm not particularly fond of number-/flexing myself, but in this case it just goes to show how inconsiderate the RL's decision was. In a situation where, as it is, we have problems beating enrage timers due to missing damage, and wipe on Marrow'gar due to people standing in fires, kicking one of the few DPS that do carry their weight and thereby vexing his mates, who actually do top the meters in nearly every fight, both in healing and DPS, while doing nothing to weed out the DPSers doing 3k on Saurfang or the healers dying to fire thrice in one fight is... well... not very bright.

Perhaps it's time you starting thinking less about how much you could add to their raid and think more about how the whole raid could improve?

Well, I did. The main problem with the raid is missing damage and lack of knowledge on the encounters. Just the week before, I had given everyone the link to a great guide on the ICC encounters, but I can't force anyone to actually read it... the only one who can is the RL, but it seems he was busy pissing off the people who actually knew what they're doing already. ;D

[Arganis]

This is why I don't raid seriously since vanilla.

Too much bs when the social aspect of the game gets to be too important.

[Caradinist]

I would have left.

[Texco]

While I agree things did seem to get a bit out of hand, don't you wonder how it might have gone if you'd made the effort to talk to the RL on vent?
The Co-RL was quite right to ask why you were willing to put your argument forward in chat but not hear them out on vent, though I'd have tried to resolve this as soon as you realised he'd been dropped from the raid tbh.

[Cannstatt]

While I agree things did seem to get a bit out of hand, don't you wonder how it might have gone if you'd made the effort to talk to the RL on vent?
The Co-RL was quite right to ask why you were willing to put your argument forward in chat but not hear them out on vent, though I'd have tried to resolve this as soon as you realised he'd been dropped from the raid tbh.

As I said, I regret not talking to them on vent. However, this wasn't the first time discussions had been held purely in chat, and considering his previous unresponsiveness to constructive criticism, I sincerely doubt it would have helped. And meh, I wasn't talking to the Co-RL...

And well, I didn't find out he had been dropped till 5 minutes before the invite. Till that point I had believed he'd just been forgotten, as did we all, including the guy doing the invites apparently...

[Dawnseven]

I think the RL melting down and kicking others (you, etc.) totally negates any possible argument he might have had (or thought he had) for kicking the lock. He went from acting like a possible adult to a confirmed child right there.

I'd also sit on this for a bit and see what happens when everyone calms down. You're worried that you won't get into an ICC 25, but everyone that was a part of your raid and now can't go because your whole crew has quit or been booted is in the same boat. Maybe when the dust settles someone will make nicey nice. Even if that doesn't happen I wouldn't lose any sleep over this. It wasn't your doing. And as for your crew mates that declined invitations, that's their prerogative and I think the decision should be respected, even if it isn't what someone else would have done (or did).

[Elanale]

This one is easy. Undermine the Raid Leader. He's got a fail train going full steam, just leech away the good players and form a successful raid. Then, if you're a spiteful bitch (like me) link him the Putricide drops he needs (via alts when he starts ignoring you) and ridicule him for his stupidity as he languishes in 10 man hell.

And laaaaugh, and laaaaugh and laaaaaaaugh...

[OafusBladesEdge]

I think I would probably kick players who weren't high or drinking. I can't recall a <b>fun</b> raid that hasn't had a lot of drinking and smoking involved. We made progress, we had fun.

[Nev12]

The talk on vent could've been a nice way to fix this( I know this was mentioned ).
Got nothing more to add then, if someone doesn't like an another person, theres nothing you can do.

Reminds me how my guild disbanded just few weeks after Icc hitted, with no communication.

[Windspast]

everyone has their own sides of the story. Being a RL can be a difficult job. All in all, nerd rage quitting a raid does no good. Look how far that has gotten you. Who ended up worse? You can't find a 25 man raid anymore. It would have just been smarter to suck it up and stop blaming on other people.

Offering advice on strategy in a raid is tricky in any situation. Regardless of how you do it, it always come off as someone simply being an ass who thinks he's better than everyone else. Over the years in leading raids, I've encountered tons of people who've always believed that the ways of their previous guild was better. It should be a general rule that you respect the authority of the RL unless he's really steering you wrong. No body cares what the raid of your friend of your friend's guild on a different server is doing.

It was an on going joke in our guild that people sounded like this: "But in my old guild, we ran TOWARDS the volcanos!"

as far as you thinking your friend got kicked for no reason - well that can be false because you didn't bother to hear the reasons so the RL gave you whatevers. You weren't leading the raid so there was no way for you to tell at all. Often people just have tunnel vision and simply ignore everything else that goes on.

And so what if your friend gets kicked? Who cares. Lead your own raid where you include your friend. It didn't seem like your friend cared enough to fight his own battles so why should you care anyways.

[Windspast]

This one is easy. Undermine the Raid Leader.

umm no, I'm pretty sure that's what got him kicked in the first place

[DemoniCG_G]

You took this so much easier than I would have, I would've instantly, as my mate did not recieve any invitation, demand an invite to him, if the raidleader was holding back with the invite, i would keep poking him(the days before the raid started) if he, on the day of the raid didn't throw an invite to my mate, I would start flaming him / trying to steal his raid(yes goddamn such a moron doesn't deserves to lead a raid in the first place) or simply just join up with the group, while everyone used flasks/food, just split the raid by unleashing my rage on the leader midraid, giving them so much more waiting time if they had to pug a top healer

but well, I'm evil, I don't give a shit about if I lose the chance to raid top tier content, if people shit on my friends, hell i shit ten times harder on the person who shit on my mate. Yes, I lost a lot of friends that way, but hell, my current friends love me, because I defend them at all cost

[Baranfac]

The best advice I can give you, grow some balls, the internet is a cruel place.