Lower PvP Weapons - Why not?

[Relictus]

may well be, but I've played wow for 5 years, been on 5 different servers, and on all of them, alliance sucked at battlegrounds. I've also played horde, and whilst yes some BGs do suck, most are very good and you just roflstomp ally noobs.

sadly, I love alliance (<3 gnomes) so can't play horde.

I've been on agamaggan-shadowburn, mug'thol-vengeance, dragonmaw-reckoning, bloodscalp-cyclone, and auchindoun-retaliation. I have not seen an overwhelming difference in wins vs losses in battlegrounds. Actually, my battlegrounds wins:losses ratio is just about even, slightly favoring the alliance. And this is from someone who average 15-30 kbs per death in pugs.

Wins/losses on battlegroups can be heavily due to what time of day you're playing at. Because AV and IoC are so inactive on most battlegroups, there is usually only one or, at most, two games going on at a time. If there are the same 40 people queueing against the same 40 people over and over again in the same one AV/IoC game, it is highly likely you will get a chain of losses.

[ghrunt]

I've been on agamaggan-shadowburn, mug'thol-vengeance, dragonmaw-reckoning, bloodscalp-cyclone, and auchindoun-retaliation. I have not seen an overwhelming difference in wins vs losses in battlegrounds. Actually, my battlegrounds wins:losses ratio is just about even, slightly favoring the alliance. And this is from someone who average 15-30 kbs per death in pugs.

Good lord. You AVERAGE 15-30 KBs per death in BGs? Im over 2200 enh shaman that has been playing for years and although I will often enough go 5-10:1 ratio I could NEVER claim a 30:1 KDR. You must be a god

[Simbert]

K is very much reliant on the class you play. As a rogue, if you choose your battles carefully, 20:1 or better is not really a problem. If you do so, however, you tend to not contribute much to the overall flow of the battle, you simply kill some low guys somewhere. Likewise, if you have a personal healer, the two of you can reach insane stats. Or if you have a very zergy bg, and play a destro-lock , always standing 20 yards behind the zerg and blowing up stuff. If none of the zergs breaks, you will get insane amounts of kills with very few deaths.

As an Enhancer, you have the great disadvantage of being a melee, which tends to get you killed more often, and not being able to choose your battle, or to escape effektively if stuff goes wrong around you.

Also, K in WoW is not really an interesting stat. Especially in BGs, where the real goals are seldom achieved through randomly killing people, but more often through being at the right spot at the right time. Blowing up a flagcarrier in the enemy base is worth much more than 20 zergkills in the middle of the field. Similar stuff exists in most of the bgs.

Edit: Sorry for further derailing this thread. As i stated above, i agree that lower-tier weapons should be available through honor.

[Relictus]

Good lord. You AVERAGE 15-30 KBs per death in BGs? Im over 2200 enh shaman that has been playing for years and although I will often enough go 5-10:1 ratio I could NEVER claim a 30:1 KDR. You must be a god

I got a screenshot of 32-0 from the other day. It's very easy as elemental. I found a picture in my old files of me playing enhance in S3 at 50-4. I lost a good chunk of my tbc pictures on my old computer, so that's the best I have for enhance. Otherwise, it's very easy as elemental.

I have a bunch from today: 28-1, 30-1. I can post them if you seriously want to see.

[KresnikHellfire]

1800 as a casual is hard if you don't have friends who are into pvp. You may be in a guild with many people, and some may like to do arena or pvp, but many have their little clique of friends that they only do arenas with regardless how good you are.

Completely disagree with this. PvE guild that I've been in for 2 years, started an arena team with a friend of mine (and we both don't PvP much) and got 1800 in a few days of playing. Similar experience for a resto druid / warrior friend of mine who have been PvE'ers their whole career.

2 anecdotal stories, I know, and I hardly play on the most prolific battlegroup in Europe, but with a little effort, 1800 is easily achieved.

[Absinthe]

I have no idea what's going on here...
1800 in wrath is basically 1200 in TBC. Not only does it take little to no time to get 1800, but it can even still be achieved with a dead bracket (2s).
And if you are complaining about having to grind honor to get it, then just bypass it and get the 2200 (zero honor).
I'm sorry, this game is far too generous as it is with handing out free gear. Higher end items should have to be achieved, hence the arena PR system. In pve (loot pinata) you basically have a bunch of kids that get together, spam globals during a scripted fight week in and week out, require zero skill, and still end up with top end shit. Pve'ers have no calls to complain about "difficulty in obtaining gear/weapons". It's handed out.

[Daxter]

Completely disagree with this. PvE guild that I've been in for 2 years, started an arena team with a friend of mine (and we both don't PvP much) and got 1800 in a few days of playing. Similar experience for a resto druid / warrior friend of mine who have been PvE'ers their whole career.

2 anecdotal stories, I know, and I hardly play on the most prolific battlegroup in Europe, but with a little effort, 1800 is easily achieved.

99.999999999999% sure you ran Priest/Rogue

That is one of the easiest comps to be successful in, in 2v2.

Even more successful then MS warr/Resto druid

[lilbandit]

Completely disagree with this. PvE guild that I've been in for 2 years, started an arena team with a friend of mine (and we both don't PvP much) and got 1800 in a few days of playing. Similar experience for a resto druid / warrior friend of mine who have been PvE'ers their whole career.

2 anecdotal stories, I know, and I hardly play on the most prolific battlegroup in Europe, but with a little effort, 1800 is easily achieved.

you were in a pve guild for 2 years....what weapon did the warrior have? I'm guessing at least Bryntroll or Shadow's edge. what weapon did you have? I'm guessing at least top level PvE weapons for the time. ofc they will destroy anyone.

we are talking about CASUALS, who DON'T have access to good pve weapons.

edit: I remember back to TBC, I worked really hard to get up to 1800 rating as restokin/rogue, we were both undergeared and unexperienced, and it was damn hard (but fun). Then someone I knew, a totalasshat moronface, who had no idea how to play his class, got 1800 in 1 night by following around a super pvp geared warrior and just spamming lifebloom on him the entire fight. He queued up in full T6 with full BT/SWP gear and a pvp trinket. nobody could kill him because he just spam healed himself so much.

[krasgoth]

I remember playing with my little paladin alt back when WOTLK first hit, queueing up for crap in hateful junk and battling my way to 2k. There were no weapons then that I could afford, I was still healing with a titansteel guardian

1800 isn't unattainable as a casual player. I was still wearing crappy deadly gear (heck, still am) and other bad offset pieces, still wearing 4 furious pieces and some pve stuff that anyone can attain (lol ashen verdict ring/nibelung) and slumming around 750 resilience and play arenas once in a while.. still working our way up.

Getting to 1800 is really supposed to be a reward.. the weapons aren't anything better than your average ICC 25 pug, where morons can kill Marrowgar/Deathwhisper and grasp a bryntroll/nibelung in their hot little hands. They just have resilience instead of a more useful stat.

Now, if people could get something as strong as heroic ICC weapons (2200 stuff) with no effort, then yeah, that'd be upsetting, but as it is, its fine.

[lilbandit]

people aren't grasping the concept, that as a casual, you can't grind both pve and pvp gear. if you want to do ICC 25, you need at least full 232 heroic gear, which takes a very long time as a casual, and is highly dependent on drops.

you will struggle a lot to get 1800 with 232 weapons if you a physical damage class.

[krasgoth]

people aren't grasping the concept, that as a casual, you can't grind both pve and pvp gear. if you want to do ICC 25, you need at least full 232 heroic gear, which takes a very long time as a casual, and is highly dependent on drops.

you will struggle a lot to get 1800 with 232 weapons if you a physical damage class.

Any monkey can join in an ICC Pug and down up to Saurfang. Even on a server as pathetically advanced as Moon Guard, people are still able to get ICC25 weapons because Marrowgar > Gunship are a joke and a half to complete.

As a casual, you have access to a couple of things if you feel you absolutely need something better than your Tyrannical Beheader:

- Icecrown 10 (Easily puggable to Festergut/Rotface)
- Quel'delar.

If you're a casual, then why do you need arena weapons in the first place? If you can't get into a 10man raid and put that minimal amount of effort into getting a Marrowgar/Saurfang weapon, why do you need a iLvl264 weapon? What would the point be of putting in an earlier weapon, such as a 251? Blizzard put it specifically so the average player has access to that level of gear.

In either case, I've seen plenty of people, even on our terrible RP server, who are rocking iLvl 232 weapons and are 1600+ with their storebought furious gear.

[Bisley]

Its not about putting forth effort. its about putting forth time.

EVERYONE is just coming in here screaming "OMG PVP CASUALS SHOULD GRIND PVE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE" ... why? Why not let them get their weapons through PvP since no one goes and tells PvE casuals "OMG JUST PVP FOR YOUR GEAR" they tried that once and everyone agreed that it was stupid. Why is there a double standard.

Basically what you are saying is "if you cant afford to play more than 30-60 minutes at a time you shouldnt be allowed to have a gear." some people log in for that long. You can get a dungeon queue in OR you can get 1-2 BG's in. Not both. If the PvP'er tries to get an ICC in, well he just spent his day probably joining a group that never got off the ground and had to bail before it started and didnt get to PvP today. PvE'ers should be allowed to farm their dungeons and PvP'ers should be allowed to get theirs in BG's. Im not even suggesting REMOTELY recent stuff, just the stuff thats on par with PvE.

Heck even if it was blue quality gear (like they did for rep with blue pvp gear for cash in TBC) SOME way to get a PvP weapon via PvP would be nice

[krasgoth]

Its not about putting forth effort. its about putting forth time.

EVERYONE is just coming in here screaming "OMG PVP CASUALS SHOULD GRIND PVE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE" ... why? Why not let them get their weapons through PvP since no one goes and tells PvE casuals "OMG JUST PVP FOR YOUR GEAR" they tried that once and everyone agreed that it was stupid. Why is there a double standard.

Basically what you are saying is "if you cant afford to play more than 30-60 minutes at a time you shouldnt be allowed to have a gear." some people log in for that long. You can get a dungeon queue in OR you can get 1-2 BG's in. Not both. If the PvP'er tries to get an ICC in, well he just spent his day probably joining a group that never got off the ground and had to bail before it started and didnt get to PvP today. PvE'ers should be allowed to farm their dungeons and PvP'ers should be allowed to get theirs in BG's. Im not even suggesting REMOTELY recent stuff, just the stuff thats on par with PvE.

Heck even if it was blue quality gear (like they did for rep with blue pvp gear for cash in TBC) SOME way to get a PvP weapon via PvP would be nice

If you don't want to put forth effort, why should you be rewarded? Things like heroics award you casual quality gear that you can use in bgs, why do you deserve a pvp weapon if you can't be bothered to gear up your toon a little?

Why on earth would you even *want* a blue pvp weapon that's worse than what you can get in the current content? What does that achieve? You want like, a level 232 pvp weapon? Why? You have attainable 232 weapons, and even if you got one, you're apparently not going to pvp for more than 30 minutes a day anyways, so why does it matter if you have it

[DocQuantum]

If I understand the OP correctly, the question is why there are no "casual" PvP weapons available. I agree, that does seem odd. I also agree with others: the TBC method (S2 weapons being insanely OP for PvE equivalents) was broken.

To be honest, I've wondered this for awhile: why no casual PvP weapons? 1800 may not be "hard" to get... but it's not casual, either.

With that said, there are enough PvE options that are REALLY easy to get that are "good enough." Sure, it doesn't have resilience... so? An ilvl 232 weapon when you've got all the gear that doesn't require an arena rating (that can be done "casually" in BGs) is still pretty potent compared to folks with no PvP gear.

[shockedandawed]

Most people didnt have access to ZA.

Wait what?

[krasgoth]

If I understand the OP correctly, the question is why there are no "casual" PvP weapons available. I agree, that does seem odd. I also agree with others: the TBC method (S2 weapons being insanely OP for PvE equivalents) was broken.

To be honest, I've wondered this for awhile: why no casual PvP weapons? 1800 may not be "hard" to get... but it's not casual, either.

With that said, there are enough PvE options that are REALLY easy to get that are "good enough." Sure, it doesn't have resilience... so? An ilvl 232 weapon when you've got all the gear that doesn't require an arena rating (that can be done "casually" in BGs) is still pretty potent compared to folks with no PvP gear.

Again... if you can't be assed to pvp once in a while, why do you need a high quality pvp weapon? If your play time is seriously SO limited that you can't play more than an hour a day (Hint: No one's time is this limited, if it is, you dont care about a pvp weapon in the first place, and are using the Tyrannical beheader like everyone else on the planet, or a titansteel destroyer, or an edge of ruin) then.. yeah.

The argument is flawed. If you're casual, your gear is already provided for you. Resilience on a weapon is useless, UNLESS you want to do arenas and bgs to be competitive in gearing, in which case you are no longer a casual player, in which case you try for the weapons that already exist :P

[Bisley]

performance-wise it doesnt matter much. as in a noncompetitive situation who cares. but there are people who enjoy having the "right" setup even if they cant play the game for long periods of time. Some people view short playing time as a sign that you better do it right the first time since you dont have time to make up for it.

The argument is also flawed that casuals should be allowed 232 PvE weapons then, since they arent raiding they dont need better PvE gear right? And raiders have raid gear. So why dont we do away with ICC 5 mans.... In vanilla there were things like the unstoppable force and the lobotimizer for PvP'ers to strive for even. And in vanilla there was "no free loot" right? Those were the glory days where scrubs didnt have all the hot loots.

Im not for just handing out free loot to everyone, but if youre going to give it to PvE'ers why not give it to the PvP'ers as well? Or take it away from both.

[K4ge]

99.999999999999% sure you ran Priest/Rogue

That is one of the easiest comps to be successful in, in 2v2.

Even more successful then MS warr/Resto druid

strong comp? yes
easy to play? not really (not hard either)

and priest needs shitloads of resilience to get anywhere. anything under 1200 res. just gets gibbed.

[Ceara]

If this means I don't have to PuG PvE or do godawful Arenas to get a decent caster shield, I'm all for it.

[Rayzan]

I really like the state pvp gear is in right now. Off pieces cost a crap load of honor and the newest tier and weapons require a good arena rating / points.

This is coming from someone without any relentless/wrathful main (5 piece set) set pieces or pvp weapons. It's very grindy but so is pve when you're waiting for that one drop. I have all my off pieces relentless and wrathful and I'm working on an arena team right now on my rogue. My pally is slightly better geared but I haven't hit 1800 arena rating yet to get my weapons but I know when I do it's going to be great. It's a feat in itself to me. A lot of people probably say 1800 is a joke but it's fun for me to get better every week to reach that goal of finally getting my pvp weapons (which will happen soon hopefully). If they made pvp weapons easier to get I would be very disappointed.