So what about Plate now?

[MushroomBomb]

Plate wearing warrior-type classes have never been on par with cloth/leather wearers, as far as hit point levels or "tankyness" (the ability to stand toe to toe with a mob and take a few hits before dropping), in any other game I've ever played. Not to say that I've played them all, but the "norm" is that plate-wearing classes are somewhat more tanky than their cloth-wearing counterparts.

"Paladins, Warriors and Death Knights that don't spec into tank talents were never supposed to tank or have more survivability specifically than anyone else"

They actually were, and have, for the past 5 years now; at least in some respects. Non-tank spec plate-wearers have, in my experience, been able to tank regular instances up until the mid to late 50's. Not only that, but one of the concerns someone brought up with GC recently is that there would be a severe shortage of tanks in the random LFG system come Cataclysm, as many of the tanks would be playing as their dps spec to level (personally I think that dual spec will eliminate this concern) and GC replied that their intent is to have DPS spec plate-wearers capable of tanking the regular instances by throwing on a a shield, shifting presences/stances/whatever and having a go. I will look for the link to this post.

My bad there, I never specified that I was talking end-game 5-mans. I'm entirely aware that normal dungeons can be tanked in DPS specs as far as Outland (and possibly farther than that).

But the thing is this: all the tank classe (barring Paladins who might have to gain some sort of mechanic, possibly a redesigned Righteous Fury) have mechanics that increase their survivability. Be it Defensive Stance, Frost Presence or Bear Form, these are what separates DPS from tanks in terms of gameplay. I'm well aware of the post you're referring to, thought. But my point is this: if you spec Fury or Arms, DPS as a DK or Retribution, you won't have extremely much more survivability than other classes (nor are you supposed to, though you can perhaps take a hit or two more before you're wiped out). However, once you put on your shield and pop into 'tank-mode', you suddenly gain a whole lot more survivability, perhaps even enough to tank 5-mans. But it does come at the price of damage, which I think is one of the reasons that this is being done. As someone above me said, it does make things slightly uneven in PvE (as well as PvP, but that's a whole 'nother subject that I'm not altogether familiar with). Plate wearers aren't supposed to be able to deal damage equal to everyone else as well as have way more survivability.

As someone above me said, it does make things slightly uneven in PvE (as well as PvP, but that's a whole 'nother subject that I'm not altogether familiar with). Plate wearers aren't supposed to be able to deal damage equal to everyone else as well as have way more survivability, unless they specifically opt for it by sacrificing damage for survivability.

This is why I'm not worried in the slightest about Plate wearer survivability vs. other survivability. Well, this and the fact that I'm certain that survivability will be evened out along with these changes via changes to cooldowns, talents and abilities.

[allforone]

I'd be more worried about dps plate wearers(and druids) popping into their tanking buff and coming across as semi-decent tanks until you hit a semi-hard boss.

[treston323]

Let's see WoTLK first season who were the overpowered classes in pvp?

DK - plate wearer
Paladin (2 specs) - plate wearer

I just hope this change will help level the playing field from the start.

Nice. The last 2 seasons casters dominated btw =)

[Deleted]

Let the qq come, god ppl never get enough !

[lllBlackSunlll]

How about you wait and see how things turn out before u QQ?
And even if ur worst fear should come true, then Gz about being the new balance druid/enh shammy... It would only do u good to lie on the ground, being facerolled because ur spec/class is to weak to do shit. U had entier WotLK to fuck up ppl, now let others be able to hit back.

- I dont play balance or enh.

Any player can kill any other person despite class, its all based on skill. I've seen a couple of ele shamans and balance druids kill a rogue 1v1. Just about whos more skilled. and Enh shamans are bitchs to kill if they know how to CC will wolfies are out but indefinitely I agree with you

enh shaman/balance druids need more survivability.

[Panoramixe]

Guess I oversimplified a little when talking about the OP classes of S6 Of course health alone doesn't make a class overpowered, it's a large number of factors together.

Anyway Blizzard still has a lot of talent trees to rework, items to balance and ideas to be adopted before we even get a beta. So saying plate will be UP come cataclysm is jumping the gun a lot, we haven't even seen a single talent tree yet. For all we know arms warrios get an ms effect, slow, stun and fear added to their bladestorm making them the freaking juggernaut. I doubt a bit of armor and hp will be the major issue then.

[Warthor]

so you saying a cloth wearer should take alot more dmg then a plate wearer why exactly?


why not all have plate then? do you know the problems that philosophy causes in PvP? do you know a plate wearer in ICC-pve gear has more HP then a warlock for example in full wrathful pvp gear? just because he has plate he has 5k more hp them me and takes 60% less dmg from physical dmg... ya that's balanced

[mogulkhan]

so you saying a cloth wearer should take alot more dmg then a plate wearer why exactly?


why not all have plate then? do you know the problems that philosophy causes in PvP? do you know a plate wearer in ICC-pve gear has more HP then a warlock for example in full wrathful pvp gear? just because he has plate he has 5k more hp them me and takes 60% less dmg from physical dmg... ya that's balanced

Now tell me , as a warlock , how much physical damage do YOU do ?

:

[Warthor]

Now tell me , as a warlock , how much physical damage do YOU do ?

:

i dont do any, or very minimal from the pet, what's your point?

[Bowz]

What about PvP? If your sole reason for defeating your opponents is staying 5K HP total above them, I'm not entirely sure you're doing it 100% right (although I'm very far from being an expert in PvP, so don't quote me on that). However, I'm sure Plate-classes survivability will be slightly increased (or having classes wearing other armor-types survivability slightly decreased) to similarize it to what we have today. If that is what is deemed good for the game. Which I'm not entirely sure it is, to be honest. Seems to me that PvP should be more about who manages to survive longest through smart gameplay and cooldowns, not who has the largest health pool (though there should be differences between a fully geared Wrathful player and a fully geared PvE player with equal skill).

Thing is, you'll still have. You can pop your Shield, your Defensive Stance, your whatever and live for a little longer. The gap is just being narrowed a bit.

As a warrior when I pvp one of the very very few suitabilities I have is having more armor and health then everyone else. As per now lets say I fight a mage he will most likely win even though he has 10k less health then I do. Now if you give him the same amount of heath and armor or close enough to same he will win just about every single time. Right now for every 2k damage I do to a mage he does about 5-6k (factoring in self healing) in return because of his ability to get away and nuke me. If it goes through in the context I just described the fights will go from unfair to the point of just giving up completely.

[MushroomBomb]

If it goes through in the context I just described the fights will go from unfair to the point of just giving up completely.

And this leads me back to a point I've been truing to make several times now: you will get compensation for this in all probability. A lot of people in this thread are talking as if this is everything that is happening in Cataclysm: they're forgetting about talent changes, ability changes and changes done through the beta when things get too bad.

Survivability in this sense will most likely get reworked. Whether it is giving you an extra cooldown, less damage taken overall or whatever.

And with this, I'm going to bed. Good night!

[Shelly]

so you saying a cloth wearer should take alot more dmg then a plate wearer why exactly?


why not all have plate then? do you know the problems that philosophy causes in PvP? do you know a plate wearer in ICC-pve gear has more HP then a warlock for example in full wrathful pvp gear? just because he has plate he has 5k more hp them me and takes 60% less dmg from physical dmg... ya that's balanced

Yes, they should take more physical damage since they are wearing less armor.

OP, here's what may really trip your mind. They have said that because of how they itemize there will be a lot of "tanking" plate that actually has LESS stamina than the dps equivalent.

So we may run into situations where the tanks end up with less HP compared to DPS.

Wacky eh?

[Whitcher]

Let's see WoTLK first season who were the overpowered classes in pvp?

DK - plate wearer Brand new class.
Paladin (2 specs) - plate wearer Completely overhauled from the last expansion.

I just hope this change will help level the playing field from the start.

There is no level playing field at the start. If there was, there would be no buffs or nerfs.

[ComputerNerd]

While this may be the around the official reason of giving players time to react to their "oh s***!" moments in pve, so avoiding instant squishes it also has benefits in pvp.
There is no logicial reason why an increasing number of almost tank-specced players with a substantial health pool increase over others should be able to put out the same amount of damage, nor why simply wearing a different armor type should grant that sort of bonus in pvp either.
Coming across melee with increasing amounts of anti-caster utility who for no apparant reason at all other than them wearing something other than cloth with several thousand more health is imbalanced and considering the similar damage output, does always put us at an immediate disadvantage.

[skrump]

Let's give an example of early WoTLK pvp from the beta.
Two premade chararcters a ret paladin and a balance druid. The ret paladin had 21kish health in his pvp gear, while the druid had 18k or less. That's a 3k difference without an actualy gameplay reason for this difference, seeing as the paladin actually has better offense and defensive cooldowns (and at the time could heal even longer than the balance druid could). It's about damn time they read my report from the WoTLK beta saying it's completely stupid idea and it makes pvp imbalanced to begin with.

Excuse me but the druid has Distance closers stealth and snares while the paladin has none not to mention that 3k more health only makes it so a paladin can withstand 1 additional hit

[Töasty]

What I don't get is people are comparing two different things: stamina, and armor. How can you deny it's unfair that someone can have more armor and more stamina at the same time? As a clothie, I have less physical damage mitigation, and as a plate wearer, you have more physical mitigation, yet little or no magical resistance. Sounds fair to me, but why give you more health then me?

[seam]

Future:
Say a clothy has 5k armor.
Now the leather dude is going to have maybe 6.5k
Mail perhaps 8.5k
and plate 10k.


Currently:
Clothy has 5k
Leather has 8.5k
Mail has 10k
Plate has 12k

I still see more there.

[Palatrino]

I hope they won't make it too close to the tanks, cause my hp to me is like what spellpower is for a mage. It's what people ask for. (I rather look at avoidance but people don't care about that >< ).

Atm it's fun to go and pvp as prot pala, can't make it in arena though as a proper tank since we run oom way to quickly. But in bgs, why is it fun? Cause I sure take my time to kill anyone, but it takes lots of people to kill me. That will disappear now with this, I won't be able to kill anyone as a tank. (Same lvl ofc).

Someone wrote about repair costs, yeah plate has more durability, but at the end of the day - who has paid Far more? Tanks.
Why do tanks get more hp? That's how it's always been - we're tanks. If you get hp, will be doing the same amount of dmg as you as a dps then?

I'd say this is killing my tanking spirit abit actually. With the thing about "anyone" being able to tank - with tanking things, like just changing stance and grab a shield and you're settled. Sure, if the tank would die in a 5man and a warrior could quickly taunt the boss and have def stance and shield etc. But reason for me to roll a tank, was that people wants you to go everywhere, you're needed. Yes, "real tanks" will be needed in raids. But it will be boring as Fuck - what do we have now then? Yes we will have our parry dodge block, but no def? Stamina, I like having 25k+ health than dpsers and healers. I'm a tank. I don't do much dmg, I eat dmg. That's what I like. What's the freaking point if we'll end up having, let's make it easy, 70k hp, then we have healers with what - 50k hp? Dpsers with 50k+ or maybe even more 60k hp?. No reason whatsoever to tank in pvp anymore.

I hope they make that "achievements going into account achievements" thing, cause heck, I wanna reroll.

I'm tired and probably mistyped stuff, and maybe I cried to much - don't give a f.

I'm just thinking of how op druids will be, and what about hunters pets? I hope they won't run around with 60k hp. Still need to see the difference but yes, I really think this will kill some of the current "tanking community" and WoW will end up with an overload of noobs (=people who are new, at stuff) that wants to tank, while the real tanks will just be something to use during raids. "Bring the retard - not the class".

Jolly good. *qq mode off*

[celinamuna]

Doesn't seem fair to me considering that plate wearers get no resistance to spells as we upgrade our gear while the other classes with lower armor do.

What ?
The only gear with spell res. is polar items and they are also available in plate.

[kingmob]

unless something has changed very recently, repair costs are based off item level, not armour type.

oh, and /care

It's always been like that. Plate costs more to repair.