Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

[Donkey Business]

Waaay too early nerfs in ICC. Why don't we just skip the raiding, the loot and hardmode titles/mounts and simply hand them out to everyone with at least three fingers and a decent wheelchair by mail on patchdays? Jesus...

[Sick Spoons]

I'm glad I'm not alliance.

Glad I'm not a blood elf :P

[Waterisbest]

M'uru > all.

It's just that it didn't have any artificial restrictions placed on how many tries guilds could have at it. I think my guild did roughly 500 or so attempts before we killed that bastard.

Besides, original C'thun wasn't killed before it got nerfed, either. People and their short memories nowadays.

I remember a blue stating C'thun wasn't killed before it got "nerfed" (according to you), because he had a million bugs. And when he was fixed, he was killed within hours.

Tell me something, how many of those 500 pulls your guild made ended with someone making a mistake and going "oh shit, ma bad"? How many of those pulls had your tanks dieing instantly because your healers slacked? How many of those pulls ended poorly because most people in your raid were fed up or tired? With limited attempts, those mistakes will cost you greatly, so everyone have to bring their A game all the time.

Also people keep bringing the limited attempts again and again, then they say limited attempts suck because end game guilds make alts and try the bosses on them, then do with main. They also go and try out 10 man and learn strategy again and again. You guys contradict yourself all the time. All guilds have spend more attempts on LK then they did for Mu'ru or whoever you think is the toughest boss in WoW.

Ok, lets forgot about the LK 25 man and Yogg+0 and lets talk about LK10hc. Guilds are now running with full ICC25hc gear, meaning ilvl277 gear, they still can't kill him on 10hc, while out gearing the encounter by miles. But that doesn't say anything about how difficult he is, does it? :

[Jasyn]

No bugs, just overtuned.

Besides, the most attempts anybody could've done against heroic LK at this point is around 40 with their mains. I don't think that's a fair comparison, either.

I won't argue semantics on it, but overtuned/bugs/impossible mechanics are kind of the same thing in this case.

I'd call a miscalculation on Blizzard's part a bug. :P

[alt]

I think I agree with the too early nerfs argument. The guilds who really need the nerfs wouldn't be able to do hard modes anyway. There's no reason to let guilds kill the LK so much faster and run out of content if Cataclysm won't be released for another 6+ months.

[andy_mitchelluk]

Jesus. It's an OPTIONAL nerf/buff (whichever way you wanna see it)

If your guild is serious about progression then you can switch the buff off.
If you're not serious the odds of you actually killing the lich king have only gone up a small amount.

5% isn't gonna suddenly mean that everyone under the sun can clear ICC. It just means that some guilds that are close will most likely have that little bit more of a chance of killing the lich king.

It's not like every single casual is going to see the lich king die all of a sudden

[TheSecretArts]

I remember a blue stating C'thun wasn't killed before it got "nerfed" (according to you), because he had a million bugs. And when he was fixed, he was killed within hours.

I remember a blue saying that the Lich King will have 104945230502095208045 million HP.

In short: [Citation Needed]

Also people keep bringing the limited attempts again and again, then they say limited attempts suck because end game guilds make alts and try the bosses on them, then do with main. They also go and try out 10 man and learn strategy again and again. You guys contradict yourself all the time. All guilds have spend more attempts on LK then they did for Mu'ru or whoever you think is the toughest boss in WoW.

Even Blizzard has admitted that limited attempts are not as good as they planned. Also, for your last line: No they haven't. If you are that convinced, please present some evidence.
[Citation Needed]!

[Tombstone]

Haha this makes quitting this game all the more better, I'm laughing my ass off right now.

[alt]

I remember a blue stating C'thun wasn't killed before it got "nerfed" (according to you), because he had a million bugs. And when he was fixed, he was killed within hours.

Tell me something, how many of those 500 pulls your guild made ended with someone making a mistake and going "oh shit, ma bad"? How many of those pulls had your tanks dieing instantly because your healers slacked? With limited attempts, those mistakes will cost you greatly, so everyone have to bring their A game all the time.

Also people keep bringing the limited attempts again and again, then they say limited attempts suck because end game guilds make alts and try the bosses on them, then do with main. They also go and try out 10 man and learn strategy again and again. You guys contradict yourself all the time. All guilds have spend more attempts on LK then they did for Mu'ru or whoever you think is the toughest boss in WoW.

Ok, lets forgot about the LK 25 man and Yogg+0 and lets talk about LK10hc. Guilds are now running with full ICC25hc gear, meaning ilvl277 gear, they still can't kill him on 10hc, while out gearing the encounter by miles. But that doesn't say anything about how difficult he is, does it? :

Every single one of them. There has not been a single wipe by any guild on any encounter in the history of not just WoW, but any videogame that wasn't the result of a mistake. It is impossible to wipe in any beatable encounter if you didn't make any mistake at all. Duh?

And C'thun had bugs but that wasn't the reason guilds failed to kill him. Guilds started to kill him after Blizzard drastically reduced the amount of hp that his adds had.

And the top guilds are hardcore, but you're completely exaggerating how many alt raids they have. For them to have spent more attempts on the LK heroic already than what they have on any boss in WoW would mean they have 10+ alts as geared as their mains. I believe an Exodus/Paragon poster said they don't even have an alt raid as geared as their main. That alt raid is just there to see mechanics. It doesn't have the gear to actually be able to beat any difficult heroic mode encounter.

[Pkite]

I think I agree with the too early nerfs argument. The guilds who really need the nerfs wouldn't be able to do hard modes anyway. There's no reason to let guilds kill the LK so much faster and run out of content if Cataclysm won't be released for another 6+ months.

This is a perfect time for a buff if you look at wow progress normal mode charts. The amount of guilds progressing has slowed, so there's a lot of casual guilds stuck on a particular boss including my own.

[Tombstone]

Jesus. It's an OPTIONAL nerf/buff (whichever way you wanna see it)

If your guild is serious about progression then you can switch the buff off.
If you're not serious the odds of you actually killing the lich king have only gone up a small amount.

5% isn't gonna suddenly mean that everyone under the sun can clear ICC. It just means that some guilds that are close will most likely have that little bit more of a chance of killing the lich king.

It's not like every single casual is going to see the lich king die all of a sudden

Do you realize what 5% is raid-wide? That menas 5% Health for every member of a 25man raid, 5% more damage, 5% more healing. I know this buff is optional, but it's just so unnecessary. If you make a game where it takes 25 people to kill something, shouldn't that something be hard, remain hard, and be worth amassing 25 people for? Lord.

[Iratus]

Tanking
Is threat fun?
When threat doesn't matter as a tank, then maximizing your rotation doesn't matter much either. To use the warrior example, you could skip Devastate, Revenge and Shield Slam and just autoattack and use defensive cooldowns. Is that fun? On the other hand, many of the requests we see are for harder hitting attacks, especially on the AE front, so that in essence it's less work to tank multiple mobs at once. Is this really what you want?

I would assert in the current game that threat is almost never an issue. It might be an issue in the first few seconds of a fight (including when new adds join the party) or when the dps severely outgear the tank (such as in a Dungeon Finder situation). Especially in a world with Misdirect, Tricks of the Trade, and Tauntable bosses, tanks on single-target raid fights get so far ahead of the dps and healers, that catching them would be almost impossible. We could definitely tone this down a little such that tanks needed to fight for threat a little more than they do now. Some players would welcome that change and some would say that Blizzard hates tanks and makes them work too hard. (Source)

NURF ME PLZ NURF ME!! plz do it!!! I'm freakign begging you! 15k tps on marrowgar/lich king (phase 1)/ saurfang / sindragosa is not fun when the highest dps does like 30% of my threat....

[notworksafe]

I'm glad I'm not alliance.

Yeah, we Horde respect our capital of Orgirmmar

[Pkite]

Yeah, we Horde respect our capital of Orgirmmar

Should have been named Orgrammar.

[Notarget]

Haha this makes quitting this game all the more better, I'm laughing my ass off right now.

Now we just need you to stop posting your useless comments on MMO as well and we are set.

Btw does anyone know if we need to train spells as we level now since there will be no more spell ranks? (sorry asked before but the question gets lost in bickering and flaming about an optional buff)

[Waterisbest]

I remember a blue saying that the Lich King will have 104945230502095208045 million HP.

In short: [Citation Needed]
Even Blizzard has admitted that limited attempts are not as good as they planned. Also, for your last line: No they haven't. If you are that convinced, please present some evidence.
[Citation Needed]!

Hp =/= Difficulty. That's the thing most people whined about in this expac.

Blizz does not make content which can't be cleared, maybe in vanilla and tbc they did, not in wotlk. Ignis and XT are exceptions, but they got fixed quickly.

Limited attempts suck. Most people will agree. I never said they are awesome. Blizz tried to make content harder with limited attempts, it back fired.

Do you really think top guilds don't use all their tries for LK? Don't use alts anymore? They don't try LK on 10hc anymore? If you calculate the amount of tries made on 10hc and 25hc, with mains and alts, it ends up almost the same. And how can you be so sure that they are only using 2 characters now and not 3? And how can you be so sure they haven't made that many tires? How about you show proof that they have stopped attempting LK, because i am not buying it :-\

[andy_mitchelluk]

Do you realize what 5% is raid-wide? That menas 5% Health for every member of a 25man raid, 5% more damage, 5% more healing. I know this buff is optional, but it's just so unnecessary. If you make a game where it takes 25 people to kill something, shouldn't that something be hard, remain hard, and be worth amassing 25 people for? Lord.

It will remain hard for those choosing not to use the buff. And also for those that do hard modes.
I really don't understand all the moaning about it. If you don't like it then turn the buff off.
If others choose to use it and kill a boss you struggled on, you can still flex your e-peen as you killed said boss WITHOUT the buff active.

Try thinking of the bigger picture. Blizzard have to keep casuals happy as well as the kids that are doped up on red-bull and pro-plus that don't know wtf a life is outside of the game ya know.

[Tombstone]

Now we just need you to stop posting your useless comments on MMO as well and we are set.

Btw does anyone know if we need to train spells as we level now since there will be no more spell ranks? (sorry asked before but the question gets lost in bickering and flaming about an optional buff)

And you said my post was stupid. Rofl

[Failbot]

Melee cant hit for straight magic dmg... Lolvenom? OH YEA! different class...

Some1 contradicts himself there...

[alt]

his is a perfect time for a buff if you look at wow progress normal mode charts. The amount of guilds progressing has slowed, so there's a lot of casual guilds stuck on a particular boss including my own.

I suppose that's true. Still, buffing in 5% increments feels like doing brain surgery with a sledgehammer.

My guild just started working on normal Arthas but that's mostly due to lack of attempts. The extremely huge difference between the easy and hard encounters and the very small differences in reward is killing morale big time.

It seems that just about everybody that can't raid at the Ensidia level is slowly cutting their raid hours to be at the casual level. My guild started at 22 hours of raiding a week. It went down to 21 in TBC, then 20, then 15, then roughly 12 all in WotLK. In practice, it's close to 10 nowadays. WotLK is just hard in the midcore guilds.