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  1. #1

    Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    Icecrown Citadel Zone-Buff is here
    The optional zone buff in the Icecrown Citadel is now available and will make the instance easier for whoever wants to use it. The buff currently increases total health, healing done and damage dealt by 5% but higher versions are in-game and will probably be activated later.


    On a sidenote, the amount of limited attempts for end-wing bosses has been increased to 35. (Thanks to Alveia for the tip and the screenshot!)


    Blue posts
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Cataclysm Stats - General
    Cataclysm stats recap
    DPS cloth: Int, Sta, Hit, Haste, Crit, Mastery (mage, warlock, Shadow priest)
    Healing cloth: Int, Sta, Spirit, Haste, Crit, Mastery (Holy and Disc priest)

    Melee leather: Agi, Sta, Hit, Haste, Crit, Mastery, Expertise (rogue, Feral druid)
    Spellpower leather: Int, Sta, Spirit, Haste, Crit, Mastery (Resto, Balance druid)

    Physical mail: Agi, Sta, Hit, Haste, Crit, Mastery, Expertise (hunter, Enhancement shaman)
    Spellpower mail: Int, Sta, Spirit, Haste, Crit, Mastery (Resto, Elemental shaman)

    DPS Plate: Str, Sta, Hit, Haste, Crit, Mastery, Expertise (Fury, Arms, Retribution, dps DKs)
    Tanking plate: Str, Sta, Hit, Armor, Dodge, Block, Parry, Mastery, Expertise (Prot, Prot and tanking DKs)
    Healing plate: Int, Sta, Spirit, Haste, Crit, Mastery (Holy paladins)

    There will be exceptions. There might be some spellpower cloth with no hit or Spirit that healers and nukers may want. There will likely be Elemental tier sets with no Spirit. Jewelry and cloaks will be more class agnostic than actual armor pieces.

    I wrote that quickly, so hopefully I didn't mangle anything. EDIT: You get a small mastery bonus for wearing the highest-armor gear capable for your class. Hunters in mail get a bonus. Hunters in leather do not.

    Mastery bonus and armor type
    There is a small Mastery bonus for wearing "your" gear. So a Balance druid who takes cloth will be essentially giving up free stats. Sometimes that may be worth it to them (just as sometimes it's worth it for a Resto druid to take that piece of +hit gear), but often times it won't be worth it especially if it's an upgrade for you. (Source)

    Reforging
    Think of reforging like enchants. It's not that you take a piece of gear and turn it into whatever you want. You pick up specific scrolls with specific conversions. We haven't decided on them all yet, but I imagine crit -> parry is not something you're likely to see. Maybe we'd do hit -> dodge for the tank who is full on or doesn't want hit. Maybe we'd do block -> parry to help DKs benefit from more plate.

    Rest assured that we're not going to promote a system where Prot paladins want dps plate for tanking more than tanking plate. Part of all of these changes are to discourage behavior like that. We don't want to recreate it immediately in a different form. (Source)

    Haste in Cataclysm
    Haste will basically remain the same for casters. It is changing for melee classes, however. Haste will also allow melee classes to recover their resources more quickly, effectively letting them hit their buttons more often. (Source)

    Gem sockets and item budget
    We take gem budgets out of the most attractive stat on a piece of gear, in order to avoid anything with sockets always trumping similar gear without sockets. As such, socketed tanking plate has less base stamina but with gems, you’ll almost certainly end up with more health than dps classes. (Source)

    Mastery Bonus
    You get a mastery bonus (i.e. free stats) for wearing your gear. If shaman or druids wear cloth, they will do so at a slight stat loss. Sometimes that may still be worth it. (Source)

    Spirit
    Spirit is currently on a lot of cloth gear because it is considered a healing AND dps stat. We are changing it to just be a healing stat. There will still be a lot of it on leather though, just not every piece. Both Spirit and hit are the kind of thing you want enough of and no more than that. Since there won't be any buffs that boost hit or Spirit, you shouldn't often find yourself in excess. (Source)

    [...] If we solve the Spirit -> hit conversion through a talent, it will be tacked on to an existing talent so that you aren't really paying for it. We like the talent approach more than a passive ability because the talents let you tell the game "I'm trying to be a caster, not a healer now."

    I've read several players say that they like to reach their hit cap and then be done with it. But that doesn't really happen because every tier there is more and more hit on gear, forcing you to either swap out some of your excess hit or avoid the new stuff completely. The new model is more that all that extra hit on higher ilevel gear will have a use.

    Plate / Cloth Armor differences
    Plate will still possess much more armor than cloth, the difference just wont be as significant as it is now. (Source)

    [...] posted something similar in the Cataclysm forum, but let's look at actual numbers. A level 80 Prot warrior in Icecrown gear unbuffed has like 45,000 health and 30,000 armor. A level 80 mage in Icecrown gear unbuffed might have 20,000 health and 2000 armor. Yes, 2000 armor. We have a lot of room to narrow the gap a little. It's a big gap. (Source)

    [...] Someone (Angua?) had a post awhile back that explained this using numbers. Cloth won't have as much armor as plate. But maybe it will have half as much armor as plate instead of one fifth as much armor as plate (or whatever the ratios end up being at higher levels).

    Really, cloth isn't the issue, since cloth wearers have spells to buff their mitigation. Leather wearers are the ones who end up the most fragile. Mail would be bad too except that shaman can use shields when needed and hunters typically don't get hit by melee much. We just want to bring things a little closer to each other. It's easier to establish a baseline for how hard a particular attack should hit for when one dps spec isn't literally four times as survivable as another. (Source)

    Tanking
    Is threat fun?
    When threat doesn't matter as a tank, then maximizing your rotation doesn't matter much either. To use the warrior example, you could skip Devastate, Revenge and Shield Slam and just autoattack and use defensive cooldowns. Is that fun? On the other hand, many of the requests we see are for harder hitting attacks, especially on the AE front, so that in essence it's less work to tank multiple mobs at once. Is this really what you want?

    I would assert in the current game that threat is almost never an issue. It might be an issue in the first few seconds of a fight (including when new adds join the party) or when the dps severely outgear the tank (such as in a Dungeon Finder situation). Especially in a world with Misdirect, Tricks of the Trade, and Tauntable bosses, tanks on single-target raid fights get so far ahead of the dps and healers, that catching them would be almost impossible. We could definitely tone this down a little such that tanks needed to fight for threat a little more than they do now. Some players would welcome that change and some would say that Blizzard hates tanks and makes them work too hard. (Source)

    Tank specs in Cataclysm
    Tanks will still be required to tank raids and I expect most heroics. You're not in any danger of being upstaged by a dps spec who has slightly more armor and health than they do now.

    Tank vs non-tank classes
    Let's compare a level 80 tank to a non-tank. Unbuffed, a level 80 mage in Icecrown gear might have 20,000 health, 2000 armor, 5% dodge, 0% parry, 0% block. Unbuffed, a level 80 Protection warrior in Icecrown gear might have 45,000 health, 30,000 armor, 25% dodge, 20% parry and 20% block. To be fair, the mage can cast armor and has a few defensive spells. The tank has Defensive Stance, cooldowns like Shield Wall and Last Stand, and cannot be crit by mobs.

    Now the mage gets converted to Cataclysm. Let's pick totally wild numbers, like +50% health and +200% armor, which I hope are much too large. The mage now has 30,000 health and 6000 armor. Wow! Still... think he's going to be tanking anything? The tank still mitigates so much damage through armor (what he doesn't avoid) that he'll still shrug off hits that flatten the poor mage tank.

    The numbers are really far off at the moment. We have a lot of room to bring them closer together while still leaving them very far apart.(Source)

    "Terrible" stats
    I actually disagree with that. The problem we have with current stats is that some are good and some are terrible. To use the Resto druid for example, crit isn't useful because so many hots can't crit and haste isn't useful because so many hots can't be hasted (and talents provide generous cast-time reduction already). To use another example, some mages are very near the crit cap to the point where a trinket that proc'd crit (or even a free crit) would be less attractive that one that proc'd haste. It's not that crit is bad for them. It's just that they have too much.

    The problem is that some stats are twice as good as other stats. If crit was slightly better than haste, you'd take crit given the choice, but still wear haste. (Source)

    Shield mechanics in Cataclysm
    You'll still be able to line up trinkets and abilities to get really good blocks when you need them. We think this design will let us make blocks more meaningful to the tanking experience since you could actually block 20,000 or more damage on a 60,000 hit. Being able to trivialize lower level mobs is sort of a bizarre perk though (and one not shared by all tank classes) and not something we're really interested in preserving. (Source

    [...] Yeah, that is sort of the intent. We don’t like that block allows certain tanks to trivialize older content. Older content is always going to be easy, but it was a little strange that warriors and paladins could literally take no damage with enough block while DKs still took some damage. Stats need to scale and this one wasn’t. (Source)

    Tanking stats disparities
    Once upon a time, being a "mana sponge" was a scary thing. Nobody (esp. druids) wanted to be the meat shield that had huge health pools but drained the healers dry. When mana matters, avoidance matters more too. I'm not saying parry will ever trump Stamina, but perhaps Stamina won't trump parry by quite as much as it does today. (Source)

    Healing
    Healers and mana management
    Imagine you have 3 heals: normal, big and fast. The big heal is expensive and the fast heal isn't very efficient.

    In your 1st tier, healers use their normal heal. The others are reserved for emergencies. In subsequent tiers, their regen is such that they can afford to branch out more into the expensive big heal and the inefficient fast heal. But while that is happening, the encounters are stepping up too. You'll need the fast heal sometimes because the damage is coming in too fast. You'll need the big heal more because sometimes you have to get someone back from the brink in a single GCD. Fortunately, as you approach the final tier, your mana regen is such that you can handle not casting your base heal as often.

    The problem currently is that efficiency is a pretty low concern given that if you don't land a heal right this second, someone may die, and your chance of running out of mana is pretty low in the first place. There is every reason to just use the inefficient flash heal. Likewise, health is too low (relative to damage) so the big heal is just overhealing. And someone can probably flash your target up before you finish that long cast. (Source)

    Death Knight (Forums / Talent Calculator)
    Scourge Strike and DKs in PvP
    We don't like melee strikes hitting for straight magical damage. We went through a lot of similar balance issues when Ret hit for so much Holy damage and to a lesser extent with Frost DKs. I agree we have some confusing tooltips, but I don't agree that Scourge Strike is one of them. It's a weapon attack that hits for physical damage. If there are diseases on the target, it adds some Shadow damage too. Doesn't seem that complicated.

    [...] We're happy with how much damage DKs can do in PvP. They were too susceptible to dispels, and we have now implemented a fix to help with that.

    Class abilities are different. Envenom is not Scourge Strike. Rogues still do a lot of physical damage. Frost Strike still hits for 100% magic damage, but it's a more controlled ability. The DK in PvP hitting for huge Scourge Strikes over and over again is not something we're going to go back to. It may have been fun, but I assert it was fun because it was overpowered not because Shadow damage is somehow more entertaining.

    Players using armor pen to hit for physical damage do not hit for magical damage. The closest argument could make is that bleeds act similar to magic damage.

    Obliterate is a different ability. Unholy has talents that play off of both Scourge Strike and Shadow damage. If we see Unholy DKs literally going to Obliterate and skipping those relevant talents (which some PvE DKs were doing before), then we would make changes, but they don't seem to be doing that now. We're certainly not going to make Scourge Strike HIT REAL HARD in order to distinguish it, so make sure you're asking for what you really want and not try to sneakily ask for a damage buff.

    In general, I find arguments to be generally weak that say "This class does X so I should be able to as well." If you have specific problems in PvP, mention those. If you think your damage is too low to exert pressure, that's a fine conversation to have. I would try to do it without the "But X ability hits hard, so mine should too" talking points.

    Finally, this dead horse feels a little dead to me. You might want to check out some of our (numerous) comments on the intent for Scourge Strike before you hit that Post button again. (Source)

    Druid (Forums / Talent Calculator)
    Druid tanking in Cataclysm
    If druids have lower avoidance (assuming you call the new parry and block avoidance), then they'll have higher armor and health to compensate. There is no reason druids must have block and parry to be competitive. They really haven't missed it much in WotLK.

    I think the only real risk to druids from a design paradigm perspective is the risk of being a mana sponge. Druids were worried about that coming into this expansion, but as we've seen, it wasn't an issue. With mana mattering more, it could be, but high armor will still help with that.

    The comment about leather was just that if leather provides as much health as plate, then the Bear multiplier doesn't need to be as high for druids still to have higher health than other tanks. (Source)

    Mage (Forums / Talent Calculator)
    Spell ranks removed - What about the food/water?
    There won't be a way or need to cast the lower level spells. If you're just worried about losing the flavor of croissants vs. strudel, we're keeping that. At some point you'll just start making the better breads. (Source)
    The MMO Report
    Forgot to post the MMO Report yesterday, don't yell at me! I still like it and I'll assume that most of you do!

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    Comics
    Dark Legacy Comics #227 and Teh Gladiators #115 are out!


  2. #2

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    How do you activate the aura?

    Edit: DLC strikes, and scores!

  3. #3

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    Is it the first of april already? This has GOT to be a joke with these buffs..
    Never look into the eyes of a horse.
    Your soul will forever be lost in the void of a horse.

  4. #4

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    And so the zone buffs (or nerfs I guess?) start rolling in. Seems kind of early to be honest. 5% is a lot when it's applied to health AND damage AND healing.

    PS. Awesome DLC as usual I see!

  5. #5

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    Ridiculus.
    Quote Originally Posted by General_Typhus View Post
    Hi i am any class in the game. To beat me spam icelance and then talk about how skilled you are when the 20k crits roll in.

  6. #6

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    Yay for easier PuGs! 30% is a massive increase in a few weeks! - Buff + Heroism = dead boss = profit
    When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead.

  7. #7
    Scarab Lord Kaneiac's Avatar
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    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    Already? Really?

    And they ALSO increased the attempts to 35?

    Hm.
    Hey, remember when I dropped my keys and you thought the phone was ringing?

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Dakario's Avatar
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    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    DL never fails

  9. #9

  10. #10

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    so is the icc buff available now?

  11. #11

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    The way I read it is that melee would go from simply swinging faster to being able to use specials more often. This seems more fair because melee swinging faster and using more specials does seem unfair.

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire Nakkí's Avatar
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    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by wooshiewoo
    I'm not entirely sure allowing mellee classes to have faster hitting white attacks AND faster hitting yellow attacks, whilst casters recieve no additional benefit is entirely fair at all tbh.

    Mellee classes already have far too much burst dps over clothies, because mellee yellow attacks are instant damage whilst caster yellow attacks have to wait xx seconds before the damage connects.

    I'm not happy about this change at all.
    Learning to read and understand correctly is also imporant. >

    What the haste change means, is that melee resources like rage regenerate more quickly. What this does not mean, is that melee classes would hit any faster.

    Pressing more buttons vs. actual increased speed of attacks - they're two different things.

  13. #13

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    scrue those damn raidwide buffs, I really hate them.. Finally I don't see an end boss kill for like 2 weeks, and now they're going to nerf it.. really: scrue that

  14. #14

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    It'll sure help out for some of the hardmode achivements! =)

  15. #15

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by sithorion
    scrue those damn raidwide buffs, I really hate them.. Finally I don't see an end boss kill for like 2 weeks, and now they're going to nerf it.. really: scrue that
    Use them or don't, they're optional. Frankly if you've already done the content, who cares then, this will just speed things up and prep you for Heroics or something.

  16. #16

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    Quote Originally Posted by zoby
    S-T-U-P-I-D
    Yes you are.

    Nobody is forcing you to use the buff. It is entirely optional (unlike the Dungeon Finder's Luck of the Draw buff).
    Armory: Meurik

  17. #17

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    Oh well, looks like my guild was too slow to make it to the Lichy guy before the buff arrived. However, I'm certainly not going to complain, as more damage, healing and health isn't going to make most encounters(exceptions being extremely high tank damage or hitting enrage timers).

  18. #18

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    I have a feeling this aura will be updated every MONTH, so in 5 months from now, patch 4.0 will be live for a November release of Cataclysm.
    Karuzo, mistweaver monk | Macphisto, discipline priest

  19. #19

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    wow, 30%? really?!

    Btw Norway is not a wasteland! :-\
    There is this thing called being so open-minded your brains fall out.

    -Richard Dawkins

  20. #20

    Re: Icecrown Citadel Zone Buff, Blue posts

    not up yet on EU servers, just checked

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