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  1. #1

    My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Ok so, my friend and I got to doing some calculations... We came up with some general points for priests...

    Regen is only worth getting until you never run out of mana. Having mana regen you can't use = a loss of throughput you could of been getting in other places basically...

    Crit is nice but should never be stacked or focused on because it's completely unreliable and often contributes to over healing so never gear, gem or enchant just for it unless it's your only option over like mp5 or something.

    Then comes the Haste Vs Sp part of the discussion. We started doing some generalized theory crafting and surprisingly this was our napkin math on it.

    Base flash heal is roughly 2100 every 1.5 seconds. It receives a .8 coefficient from spell power. So, it would take roughly 2700sp in order to double the effectiveness of flash heal. However... Haste is a straight thing, not sure how to say that elegantly, however the GCD is hard capped at 1.0 seconds. So, increasing your haste beyond 1.0 second would be pointless because then you would have to wait for the GCD to finish...

    TLDR:

    It would require roughly 34% haste in order to decrease the flash heal cast time down to 1.0 every cast. Even if you did this you would only be effectively healing ~50% more assuming you spam healed and never over healed the entire fight. However... with only 2700 sp you have effectively doubled the amount you heal for with your flash heal making casting it even at 1.5 seconds more effective than casting it for half that at 1.0 seconds.

    So, my question is what would ever be the point of gemming or enchanting for anything other than SP, seeing as it has no DR, assuming you never ran out of mana during most fights?

  2. #2
    Mechagnome crikk23's Avatar
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    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    haste is fun?

    and this is a game.


    so fun above all else ;D
    im trap in this bullshit this routine of life. they build us all up just to tear us all down.


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  3. #3

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    First. Are you talking about holy or disc?

    Because disc is stacking SP now.
    About holy, do you only use flash heal? I like me some PoH, GH etc.

    But yes, it is possible to cap haste.

    Quote Originally Posted by crikk23
    haste is fun?

    and this is a game.


    so fun above all else ;D
    How is it fun to stack something you are capped in? You might aswell stack some ArP then.

  4. #4

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    As a raid healer, you primary goal is not (should not be) to land the biggest heal possible on a player, but to land your heals on a many as possible within a given timeframe (eg. the period from when the first damage on the raid lands and until the second damage that would kill unhealed players land).

    For tank healing, haste comes into consideration when the boss hits so fast that the most important is that the tank gets a heal fast rather than getting a slightly larger heal, slower. However, there has been blue posts indicating that this will change in Cataclysm.

    What you are saying is that stacking haste loses over spellpower, because spellpower has no dr. This is true in theory, but only when you are actually (soft-) capped with your haste. Up until that point, haste is just as viable as spellpower (more or less ofc, but you need both for sure).

  5. #5
    Dreadlord
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    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    You're not comparing remotely relevant numbers, so let's try to put them in a meaningful way. First, your 34% number is wrong it takes about 38.7% or around 1268 Haste Rating to GCD cap with raid buffs. So, just running from your assumptions on Flash Heal (actual average base is 2040 and coefficient is 80.57% with 0/5 EH), that means that 1268 Haste with give the same throughput as 1266 SP. Well, those values work out pretty well, but it's not quite that simple because SP is cheaper in terms of item budget, in fact, SP costs 6/7 as much as Haste, so, based on those assumptions SP is that much better.

    You see for the same reason that Crit often leads to overheals, SP suffers from as well, some amount of it will simply contribute to overheal, while Haste will let me get out somewhat smaller heals that are less likely to overheal, faster. Consider an extreme example (rounding to 2000 base for simple numbers), where I can cast a 2k FH every second (case with 1268 Haste), or a 3k FH every 1.5s (case with 1266 SP), they both lead to the same theoretical HPS, but they will have dramatically different results in play style. In fact, the first person will probably have much less overheal because he's getting out smaller heals faster and, thus, can adjust in a more fine tuned manner.

    Now, of course, all of that only applies if you're spamming Flash Heal and if you are, you're a terrible healer. The fact of the matter is that the actual relationship between these two stats is a lot more complicated. For example, consider a fight like Twin Val'kyrs, Festergut, or Blood-Queen, getting out slower bigger heals will just be horrible because most of the damage is relatively small, so you're more effective getting out smaller faster heals. Another factor to consider is CDs, because if a certain amount of Haste lets you get one more GCD between a CoH or PoM CD than you could before, you just got a considerable increase in throughput. Besides, consider the current situation where most ICC geared Priests are running near or upwards of 4k SP and seeing larger heals than are needed to top people off, so it just makes sense to increase the number of heals you can get off so you can top off more people.

    Thus, in the end, Haste starts to quickly make up that different imeization budget and can easily come to surpass SP at high gear levels because the SP simply isn't needed and the mana detriment is of little or no consequence.

  6. #6
    Mechagnome crikk23's Avatar
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    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by fjols
    First. Are you talking about holy or disc?

    Because disc is stacking SP now.
    About holy, do you only use flash heal? I like me some PoH, GH etc.

    But yes, it is possible to cap haste.

    How is it fun to stack something you are capped in? You might aswell stack some ArP then.
    wait does the OP mean keep stacking haste after it stops working then? that seems like a given.

    but i try to max out my haste first in all classes just for the fact its fun to do stuff faster
    im trap in this bullshit this routine of life. they build us all up just to tear us all down.


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    "its like my tongue on LSD"

  7. #7

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Sorry, I guess I should of been a lot more detailed in my explanation. I forgot to put it into context...

    My guild atm is only 10 man, I pug 25's but my primary spec is Disc. We don't have a holy pally but 2 resto druids (One dual specs balance most of the time) so I pretty much dedicate myself to tank healing. After trying the GHeal spec I didn't really enjoy it as much as I did the FH spec, I found that even on festergut until like 5 stacks spamming heals wasn't even necessary and after that bubble + pom + penance + 2 or 3 flash heals is enough to keep the MT from dying until tank swap even on 3 inhales.

    I have to say of the fights we've done so far, the only 2 fights I find hard to heal are rotface and council. Those fights just require me to heal a lot of people all over the place and I do often end up spamming flash heals like 90% of the time. It's a waste of mana to bubble someone who wont use it, when a flash heal would top them off.

    I guess I was wondering if in my situation if SP was better than haste seeing as my crit fh's only heal for 8k and we already proved even with the revised math that sp = more throughput.

    Here's a link to my armory, you guys can tear it to pieces:

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...a&cn=Rickytick

  8. #8

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddy
    So, my question is what would ever be the point of gemming or enchanting for anything other than SP, seeing as it has no DR, assuming you never ran out of mana during most fights?
    Speed. Casting faster will save lives. Spells reacting quicker will save lives. Being able to swith between many targets quickly because your spells are going off quickly will save more lives.

    Look at it like this, you can heal 1 person for 1500, or heal 2 people for 1000. That's kinda the idea of how haste works. Even if you could get enough SP to heal that 1 person for 2000, healing 2 people for 1000 is probably still better, unless you're a tank healer, which as Holy, you are not. You're about getting off as many GCD's as possible to burst heal raid damage with CoH and PoM while rolling Renews.

    So...GCD. Priests use lots of instant cast spells. Waiting 1.0 second between PoM and CoH is better than 1.5 seconds. With enough haste you can increase the amount of "filler" spells you can cast in between CoH cooldowns. If renew heals for ~18k, and you get enough haste to cast an extra renew in the CoH "cycle" you just upped your healing by 18k. So it's really about being able to cast more spells, being able to cast more spells is better than being able to cast a spell stronger.

    Of course this is because the amounts of SP you get just by getting decent gear is already enough. You'll also get SP from red gem slots and even 12 SP from blue gem slots, so the versatility/utility/speed you get from putting haste in yellow slots is worth much more than having your spell hit for 50-100 more (the yellow gems would probably have an even smaller impact than that).

    This is talking about Holy of course, Discipline doesn't get as much value from haste because of Borrowed Time and Enlightenment and usually do gem mostly pure SP in blue/red and SP-INT in yellow.

    Hope this made sense.

    Just read your last post. As Discipline, you want mainly SP. If you're having any mana problems at all you want SP-INT in yellow slots (I would do this anyway because you never know if another healer might die or if you try something harder one day). One thing about your armory, I would definitely get the 9 SP bonus from the head slot, it's only trading 2 SP for 10 INT or 10 whatever rating you want, that 2 SP will not be missed. Besides all of this, you're setup is pretty damn good.

    EX - <PIE CHART> US TOP 10 Check 'em out http://piechart-guild.com/

  9. #9
    Dreadlord
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    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    I assumed you were refering to Holy because of what you thought of Crit. Now that you've clarified you're Discipline, yes, I generally wouldn't advise that a Discipline Priest gem or enchant for Haste over SP because throughput IS a real concern. On one extreme end with heavy PWS spam, Haste is borderline useless after a small amount, but SP scales extremely well. In the other extreme, with heavy direct healing, Haste is useful, but SP is at least as useful because throughput IS a major concern. Haste will serve well in a direct healing capacity for a GH oriented spec, but since you enjoy a FH oriented spec more, I guess that point is moot.

    So, to answer you question, for you playstyle and spec, yes, I would SP trumps Haste. So, I'd probably consider Haste as a Reckless Ametrine in yellow sockets (if you're going for the bonus and you don't need the mana from Intellect) and on your cloak (unless you're an engineer or tailor), but otherwise focus on SP. That said, you may find that part of the reason you didn't like the GH spec was because of your lack of Haste and the cast being slow; maybe if you had more Haste and had faster casts you would enjoy it more.

  10. #10

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    You guys are missing the key point here: You do not need to gem for Haste at all to haste cap as Disc. You need 1012 haste to GCD cap. You can do that with no haste on trinkets and without 277 gear. Haste is multiplicative and you actually need less haste than you're thinking.

    1002 = 30.863% haste
    Talented = 6%
    Raid buffs = 3% and 5%

    1.3086 * 1.06 * 1.03 * 1.05 = 1.5 = 50% haste.

    It's actually slightly more than 50%, because 1012 haste is slightly more than what's needed. Problem is... 1011 is slightly less. Either way you can come close to 1012 in 251 and 245 gear if you pick the right pieces. You can go beyond that with 264 pieces. No gemming is needed and honestly, when you hit this point, you may want to start gemming Int. If you ever need to full time tank heal you can go OOM a lot faster than you'd think.

    The main issue you might think about is 4.0, since Spirit will then be important to Disc and that will make your haste set harder to get (though you can just take haste/spirit pieces to fill gaps). Also for the Lich King you'll want a set that gives you 30k+ mana, doesn't need haste at all and optimally has under 3k SP. I use my T8/9 Holy gear regemmed for all +20 int for that fight.

  11. #11
    Dreadlord
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    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    harky, you're right. I wasn't alone in thinking he was Holy based on the OP, hence why we stressed the importance of Haste. For Discipline, it definitely loses out to Spell Power in the vast majority of cases, as such, yes, it's generally a bad idea to gem or enchant it. The only exceptions I'd issue to that would be to match sockets when Int isn't needed or because you're not a tailor or engineer and it's the only cloak enchant option worth anything.

  12. #12

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    He can't be Holy at the quoted 34% haste figure. 34 + 3 + 5 + 6 = 48, so that's close-ish as Disc. 34% is a nonsense number as Holy. Additive it would only be 42%, well beneath the GCD cap and multiplicative it's still only 45%. GCD cap as Holy is 38.7%, you need 1269 haste. Still obtainable, but substantially more than the quoted 1114 he proposed. It's still obtainable, but you need to gem it at Holy to retain the new 4pT10 which is now a must-have.

  13. #13
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    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    He can't be Holy at the quoted 34% haste figure. 34 + 3 + 5 + 6 = 48, so that's close-ish as Disc. 34% is a nonsense number as Holy. Additive it would only be 42%, well beneath the GCD cap and multiplicative it's still only 45%. GCD cap as Holy is 38.7%, you need 1269 haste. Still obtainable, but substantially more than the quoted 1114 he proposed. It's still obtainable, but you need to gem it at Holy to retain the new 4pT10 which is now a must-have.
    TBH, I was ignoring the 34% Haste value he gave since, well, it didn't apply to anything. I don't think assuming he was refering to Holy is unreasonable based on the other statements in the OP. Either way, I think it's fair to say that the conclusion is the same that Haste is worth gemming for as Holy and not as Discipline.

  14. #14

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Hehe harky you give me too much credit, the way I did my napkin math and considering I'm no where near a math major I'm not surprised I'm completely wrong...

    I took 1.5 GCD and took it times .34 which would be 34% haste and that drops it by like .51 and I assumed ok subtract from 1.5 and you get damn near 1. Well, if the GCD is 1 and that just made your flash heal hard capped then what would be the point beyond that. What I was trying to show was that SP from my inept calculations would have a much more powerful effect assuming you never over healed. The reason for this was because with only 2700 sp you could double the amount that flash heal healed for in 1.5 seconds where as with haste, even if you cap flash heal at 1.0 seconds your only casting it .5 seconds faster which means you're not doubling your healing power.

  15. #15

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Yeah, that explains it, I suppose. That's backwards, by the way. Haste doesn't reduce casting time, it increases casting speed. That may sound like the same thing, but it isn't. If it reduced casting time then 100% haste would reduce any spell to an instant cast. However, when increasing casting speed by 100% it simply reduces any spell's cast time to 50%.

    Casting time = base time / ( 1 + haste% / 100 )

    So 50% = base time / ( 1 + 50 / 100 ) = base time / 1.5

    It's actually quite a bit simpler than you're trying to make it.

    You also need to keep in mind that Haste and SP scale with each other exponentially. The more SP you have the more Haste is worth. The more Haste you have the more SP is worth. At your 2700 SP number SP is probably better than haste. At normal 4k+ numbers we walk around with now it's a different picture. That's why ~11% was advised in Naxx, but now 20%+ is advised in ICC.

  16. #16

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Yeah, unfortunately my guild has gotten the shaft when it comes to drops. I haven't seen almost anything that is an upgrade for me, but the other thing that sucks is I've been losing haste left and right for the good upgrades I have found.

    I originally was rolling with http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47743#comments and replaced that with http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50227 + http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50309 but I wasn't sure which would ultimately be better. To take full advantage of that staff you have to use sockets to get the bonus to haste and that ended up making the sp > for the dagger and heart than the staff. So, I lost like 2% haste there.

    I originally had http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47732 and traded it for http://www.wowhead.com/?item=51381 which lost me half a % of haste.

    I originally had http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50286 and traded it for http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50804 which lost me almost 2% haste.

    I originally had http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44005 and traded it for http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50469 which lost me another like 2% haste.

    Then I regemmed for all sp which lost me about 2% haste.

    So in total I basically traded 8% haste for about 350 SP. Not sure if that was a realy dumb move or in my situation the right one but after doing that math it seemed a constant that for me sp would always be better than haste since it had no DR.

  17. #17

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddy
    It would require roughly 34% haste in order to decrease the flash heal cast time down to 1.0 every cast. Even if you did this you would only be effectively healing ~50% more assuming you spam healed and never over healed the entire fight. However... with only 2700 sp you have effectively doubled the amount you heal for with your flash heal making casting it even at 1.5 seconds more effective than casting it for half that at 1.0 seconds.
    You need 33.3% haste to lower the GCD to 1 second.

    5% haste & 3% haste are available in raid buffs.

    Haste percentages are multiplicative, meaning you only need 22.98% haste from gear to reach the GCD cap.

    22.98% haste converts to 754 haste rating (this may be slightly wrong, im using a haste rating figure off the top of my head, but this figure will be close if my memory is incorrect).

    So you are comparing 2700sp with 754 haste rating... 754 haste rating has the effect of 50% more healing, while your 2700 figure is 100%... so it stands to reason that 1350 will be roughly 50% (this again may be slightly wrong due to base healing).

    last I checked 754 haste rating is less iLvl points than 1350SP... seems to me haste provides the same effect (to a point) than sp... In addition this is an analysis on only 1 spell...

  18. #18

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    You need 33.3% haste to lower the GCD to 1 second.

    5% haste & 3% haste are available in raid buffs.

    Haste percentages are multiplicative, meaning you only need 22.98% haste from gear to reach the GCD cap.

    22.98% haste converts to 754 haste rating (this may be slightly wrong, im using a haste rating figure off the top of my head, but this figure will be close if my memory is incorrect).

    So you are comparing 2700sp with 754 haste rating... 754 haste rating has the effect of 50% more healing, while your 2700 figure is 100%... so it stands to reason that 1350 will be roughly 50% (this again may be slightly wrong due to base healing).

    last I checked 754 haste rating is less iLvl points than 1350SP... seems to me haste provides the same effect (to a point) than sp... In addition this is an analysis on only 1 spell...
    Woah, Worshaka, you usually are spot on with haste calculations, but what happened? And there is no need to do the calculations again since harky has already got the OP straight on the numbers.

  19. #19

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by fabian
    Woah, Worshaka, you usually are spot on with haste calculations, but what happened? And there is no need to do the calculations again since harky has already got the OP straight on the numbers.
    This is what happens when you try to reply just before a lecture is about to begin and rush it... I actually realised half way through the lecture I made a mistake but this is the earliest I could rectify it.

    Firstly I made the mistake of following the lead of the OP... to reduce cast time by 1/3 you require 50% haste, not 33.3... so that was me being mostly asleep. So fixing that mistake (and confirming that 1% haste = 32.79 haste rating) you require 38.7% haste from gear (assuming raid haste buffs) which equates to 1269 haste rating.

    Of course 50% haste means you can cast 50% more spells which equates to a flat 50% more healing because haste is a linear scaling stat. So if this 2700 sp figure does describe 100% more throughput... napkin math suggest something around 1350sp does 50%... however i'm not sure of that logic and I don't actually have a spreadsheet to test that assumption out ready to go and I don't have time to build one atm.

    The problem of course is that this type of analysis doesn't account of Overhealing... the larger your heals are the more likely they will overheal... so at some point SP is going to have an increasing realationship with OH... haste doesn't have that relationship... your general chance of OH does not increase with more haste...

    I would suggest that in this general analysis that haste & SP look equal but at large SP values you will see diminishing returns while haste will scale linearly right up until 1269 haste rating. Nothing new here in all honnesty... you obviously aim to get as much of both.

  20. #20

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Not to be argumentative but it's impossible to say that an increase in haste can't cause over healing. You could also say that an increase in sp wouldn't cause oh because instead of casting at 6k like you normally would you would adjust to 6500, 7000, 7500 and so on until you reached the maximum allowed sp and you would just wait for the tank to drop by that amount.

    What really sucks is my guild decided to swap our MT pally into holy tonight and swap me over to holy... So, I got to regem and enchant and all of that today and I really hate this game sometimes. 8 (


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