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  1. #21

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddy
    Not to be argumentative but it's impossible to say that an increase in haste can't cause over healing. You could also say that an increase in sp wouldn't cause oh because instead of casting at 6k like you normally would you would adjust to 6500, 7000, 7500 and so on until you reached the maximum allowed sp and you would just wait for the tank to drop by that amount.

    What really sucks is my guild decided to swap our MT pally into holy tonight and swap me over to holy... So, I got to regem and enchant and all of that today and I really hate this game sometimes. 8 (

    The problem with that logic is:

    1. Waiting for someone to take additional damage before you choose to land a heal on them increases the likelihood of deaths
    2. You're assuming that the target can take additional damage, a lot of raid damage can be for small amounts but accross numerous targets.

    As blue posts have described, healing today isn't about trying to be effecient its about trying to restore people to full health as quickly as possible. That means if someone is 3K from full health you want to heal them immediately. Now this discussion has centered around FH, obviously Renew or CoH are probably more appropriate spells to use to heal 3K (which you use will boil down to how many targets need a heal).

    Just just assume FH for the context of this argument, if someone isn't on full health its likely that waiting for them to take additional damage will result in them getting to a life total that may cause death or that portion of healing will come from another healer in which case why bother healing yourself?

    Even when we make the assumption that raid damage is so severe that healers no spare GCD's... upping the strength of single target heals gets to the point that the heal becomes such a massive proprotion of the targets health pool that one can't help but overheal. However, if you were to reitemise some of the strength of your heals (ie SP) into haste you would see heals be less of a proportion of health pool but more numerous.

    Lets take some absurd new healing spell that had a 0.5 sec GCD and was instant but only healed for 1/3 that of FH... in the same time period you could heal a target for the same amount as FH, however you would have the option of spending 1/3 of a FH on a new target in which case you would excpet more effective healing throughput. This is sort of the relationship I describe, there is a point that faster smaller heals become more effective than slower more powerful heals. Case in point is GHeal, it is considered to be rather useless these days for that very reason.

  2. #22

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    well i´m a mage and so cant contribute TOO much on the healing topic.

    All i can say is that throughput is NOT something a healer should maximize on.
    Throughput will make you look good in terms of healing meter in recount and such, but it will most probably NOT make you a better healer.

    imagine following scenario:
    2 people are at 5k life, and in 2.5 seconds they will get an additional 6k damage.
    So to say without a heal incoming they are doomed.
    Now heal them with your (unhasted) 1.5 seconds flash heal. One of them WILL die. Thus not only reducing your effectiveness but even your throughput. Since your second target dies before the heal cuts in, there wont be any heal. leaving just one unhasted but spellpowered FL.

    With haste you could save BOTH of them, what i think is FAR more effective than letting one die.
    Throughput optimizations are for Damage Dealers, not for healers in my eyes.

    /edit damn typos corrected, hopefully all of em...

  3. #23

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by ripponesan
    well i´m a mage and so cant contribute TOO much on the healing topic.

    All i can say is that throughput is NOT something a healer should maximize on.
    Throughput will make you look good in terms of healing meter in recount and such, but it will most probably NOT make you a better healer.

    imagine following scenario:
    2 people are at 5k life, and in 2.5 seconds they will get an additional 6k damage.
    So to say without a heal incoming they are doomed.
    Now heal them with your (unhasted) 1.5 seconds flash heal. One of them WILL die. Thus not only reducing your effectiveness but even your throughput. Since your second target dies before the heal cuts in, there wont be any heal. leaving just one unhasted but spellpowered FL.

    With haste you could save BOTH of them, what i think is FAR more effective than letting one die.
    Throughput optimizations are for Damage Dealers, not for healers in my eyes.

    /edit damn typos corrected, hopefully all of em...
    haste equals more throughput, so i think your statement is a contradiction :-)

    often it's not about haste vs. spellpower and it's not like you choose 1 over the other, it's more a balance issue.
    My biggest problem is finding gear with haste on it... often it's crit and spellpower :


  4. #24

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by ripponesan
    well i´m a mage and so cant contribute TOO much on the healing topic.

    All i can say is that throughput is NOT something a healer should maximize on.
    Throughput will make you look good in terms of healing meter in recount and such, but it will most probably NOT make you a better healer.

    imagine following scenario:
    2 people are at 5k life, and in 2.5 seconds they will get an additional 6k damage.
    So to say without a heal incoming they are doomed.
    Now heal them with your (unhasted) 1.5 seconds flash heal. One of them WILL die. Thus not only reducing your effectiveness but even your throughput. Since your second target dies before the heal cuts in, there wont be any heal. leaving just one unhasted but spellpowered FL.

    With haste you could save BOTH of them, what i think is FAR more effective than letting one die.
    Throughput optimizations are for Damage Dealers, not for healers in my eyes.

    /edit damn typos corrected, hopefully all of em...

    Well for starters this was never about meter flexing, I'm often significantly behind other healers in output especially on 25 man raids. However, I'm also the guy who's saving people from dying who those healers only threw a renew on or ignored to spam heals on the tank. I'm also usually the lowest over healing because I don't panic when the raid starts taking damage I prioritize the people with the lowest and highest chance to die first and I don't just spam my aoe heals anytime someone takes damage.

    Putting it back into context, in 10 mans it's very rare that the entire party is taking 6k damage every second and in that case I would be spamming PoH and CoH and PoM anyway which any holy priest renew vs flash heal would be doing. The only difference in that scenario would be that someone with 20% haste would land their PoH and CoH / PoM a tid bit faster than I would and I highly doubt that tidbit I believe is ~.2 seconds faster is going to make the difference.

    Again, this was never a discussion about haste being < or > spellpower it was a simple priority list. All I was getting at was I have found it easier to gear myself for spellpower and gem for it than it was to gem or gear for haste without sacrificing a lot of other stats. Harky has made it clear that the value of haste increases as spellpower increases and vise versa. So, I'm not saying I don't want both I'm saying I can't effectively gear for haste without sacrificing too much spellpower in the trade off. However, I can sacrifice haste for spellpower and gain more imo.

  5. #25

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Waddy, I can't help but think you're not looking very hard. Just a quick glance I can see your chest, helm, cloak, boots, weapon, shoulders and bracers could be replaced easily. If you really want to cling to your 2pT9 do it with Shoulders and Gloves. Those are low item budget and you lose the least stats. You'll lose a little haste on gloves, but it's nothing compared to switching the chest to a haste item and upgrading the pants. That will pop you up around 100 haste. A new straff would give you another 100. Switching cloaks is another 60ish. Boots another 70. 50 off bracers. Another 80 off the helm, but you'd need to have LK down, so.. yeah. That's just a quick glance, but would pop you up over 700 haste.

  6. #26

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Lol, well because I seem to be utterly terrible when it comes to finding these pieces... You mind linking them? Also, what do you consider easily? Like I've said many times we've had bad luck with RNG. I'm not clinging to my t9 by any means, I've just not gotten enough frost badges yet to be able to replace the leggs and Chest. Which are barely if at all an upgrade in stats, I was reading a buncha mass hate on the forums about our t10 so I was looking for other things to spend my badges on first.

  7. #27

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    T10 has an upcoming buff in regard to the new 4p bonus.

    In regards to the pieces, I could link them to you, but instead I'll do this:

    1. Go to www.wowhead.com
    2. Using the dropdown menu go to: Database > Items > Armor > Cloth > Chest
    3. Change the 'level' field to 245 - 264.
    4. Change 'usable by' to Priest.
    5. Open the dropdown above 'add another filter' and scroll down, then click Haste.
    6. Click apply filter.

    Simply change the 'Chest' tab to whatever other items to show those instead. That will give you a quick list of where to get some haste upgrades. I see 7 upgrades to your chest from doing the above, including a vendor item, a tailoring item, two ICC 10 drops, a ToC25 drop, a ToGC25 drop and one ICC25 drop. Boots you'll see two upgrades. Cloaks you'll see two upgrades. Bracers you'll see a ToGC25 drop, though the stat exchange from the tailoring bracers is worth the 6 item level drop. Weapon is a little more complicated, but Halion, Dying Light and Mag'hari are all direct upgrades.

  8. #28

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddy
    It would require roughly 34% haste in order to decrease the flash heal cast time down to 1.0 every cast. Even if you did this you would only be effectively healing ~50% more assuming you spam healed and never over healed the entire fight. However... with only 2700 sp you have effectively doubled the amount you heal for with your flash heal making casting it even at 1.5 seconds more effective than casting it for half that at 1.0 seconds.

    So, my question is what would ever be the point of gemming or enchanting for anything other than SP, seeing as it has no DR, assuming you never ran out of mana during most fights?
    wrong. it would take 50% haste to get your flash heal to a 1sec cast with no other modifiers.

  9. #29

    Re: My buddy and I started thinking and I wanna get some feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by spinky
    wrong. it would take 50% haste to get your flash heal to a 1sec cast with no other modifiers.
    Little late there. Might want to read the other replies.


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