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  1. #1

    LFR Fix - Better Loot System = Better Atmosphere

    To borrow a movie quote, LFR is usually something as follows. "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious."
    Between flamers, afkers, and people that give no shit...it can and usually ends up feeling more like a dentist visit then something resembling an "adventure through a difficult dungeon with exciting battles and rewards".

    Since the main (if not only reason) LFR is run over and over is loot, a system needs to be put into place that determines whether or not loot will be received. As it stands now, you only have to be in the raid, and near the boss when it dies. That encourages people to lazy, find ways to die at the beginning of the fight so they can go watch TV or browse the web, not give a rats ass about their gear or performance, and for those that aren't the first 3, to feel genuine feelings of negativity towards players who do not pull their weight.

    To combat all of the above, a system of checks must be put into LFR. Something along the lines of the following.

    1. If <50% of a players gear is enchanted or gemmed, the only rewards they may receive from personal loot are special "enchants" and gems. These would only be active in LFR.
    2. If a player does not dodge Boss abilities enough, their chance for loot should be lowered by a % based on how many times they were hit by an avoidable ability. (Think people standing in ground AoE on ...well, just about any fight). If a player reaches 0% , they receive a gray item worth 1 copper from their bag.
    3. If a player does not reach a minimum threshold of damage/healing/mitigation on a fight, they will not be elgible for loot from that boss for the week. On ANY difficulty. See : All those people in your LFR doing 50-60k DPS on fights that are more or less tank and spank.
    4. Players who actually regularly avoid abilities, perform well for their role (Damaging the boss, healing/dpsing as necessary, actively mitigating boss damage as a tank), should receive a token for a new vendor. Call it the LFR token. Such tokens would be able to be used to purchase special food/flasks/potions usable in LFR only , as well as warforged seals, and for enough of them, 1 piece of gear. (no exact numbers but something reasonable.)

    While I'm sure there will still be some problems in LFR, there usually are, rewarding players based on performing the task properly and efficiently rather than just being there should a good amount of the issues LFR suffers from.

    TL;DR: Blizz should implement a system that rewards actively doing the right thing and "punishes" players who expect to be carried.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Arishtat View Post
    TL;DR: Blizz should implement a system that rewards actively doing the right thing and "punishes" players who expect to be carried.
    No. It's not Blizzards job to "punish" player. IF you think a player is bad or does not deserve to get loot, you have the possibility to kick him.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Keashaa View Post
    No. It's not Blizzards job to "punish" player. IF you think a player is bad or does not deserve to get loot, you have the possibility to kick him.
    Except that it is their problem. If you build an atmosphere and environment that encourages toxic behavior, people can/will eventually get sick of it, leading to either lack of use of said environment (in which case LFR becomes a waste of their development time = waste of their money) , or people that only ran LFR as their end game, forcing them out as well (loss of some subs = loss of money). No matter how you slice it, it is very much Blizz's problem, as well as the playerbase.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Arishtat View Post
    3. If a player does not reach a minimum threshold of damage/healing/mitigation on a fight, they will not be elgible for loot from that boss for the week. On ANY difficulty. See : All those people in your LFR doing 50-60k DPS on fights that are more or less tank and spank.
    example a) You just geared up for lfr, you find a raid and end up with 5 other healers with full heroic gear, you won't be healing ANYTHING, no matter how good you are.
    example b) You are a decently geared tank, you want to boost your buddies in lfr, instead of dealing massive damage you will need to mitigate damage that pretty much non existant

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Mouzfun View Post
    example a) You just geared up for lfr, you find a raid and end up with 5 other healers with full heroic gear, you won't be healing ANYTHING, no matter how good you are.
    example b) You are a decently geared tank, you want to boost your buddies in lfr, instead of dealing massive damage you will need to mitigate damage that pretty much non existant
    Thus, doing some DPS when there's no healing required / mitigation required. Obviously the threshold for every fight would be different, but the principle is sound. Activity rather than standing around and not contributing.

  6. #6
    Brewmaster Daedelus's Avatar
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    I support this although it will never happen. There are people doing 60K dps who are genuinely trying their best but due to a combination of crap gear and not having a clue, no amount of carrot/stick will help them. I don't know how it's possible to do 60K dps but there you are, it happens.

    It would be good if you got some some sort of "grade" at the end of a fight based on how well you did the encounter but trying to do that for dps/healing/tanking is impossible.

  7. #7
    I actually tend to agree with you, though perhaps for slightly different reasons. In the past, lazy or bad players have simply not been allowed to raid, if they wanted to raid they'd need to work on their skill or work on their attitude, but now anyone is able to raid, and I don't have a problem with that.

    The issue is that with the current format there is no incentive for these people to get better any more. If you kick them, sure that makes YOUR group better, but they'll just requeue, because, in time they will find a group that doesn't give a shit and let's them stay. (I should also mention briefly that the kick system is also a bit iffy at times, but I won't go in to that)

    Therefore I do agree that some 'hard line' approach should be taken. If you don't perform, you don't get loot, simple as that. In a normal or heroic raid that would be the case, so why not in lfr as well? While it may seem harsh, it would encourage good player and better prepare people for normal raiding (which is the goal of lfr)

  8. #8
    Feature creep. The game is already suffering from it to help cure all the problems it created when it added all these "convenience" features in the first place.

    You want it to have atmosphere, basic cordiality, and competence again? There's no way to simulate it, just get rid of LFR/LFD, X-Server play, go back to the old gear budgets (BC), merge/disband servers aggressively, put in place a faction quota. If you want people to behave, put them in a room of people who they have to see tomorrow, the next day, and the next.

  9. #9
    they already said that they won't be doing this because the system has no way to distinguish people that are actively slacking from people that are learning to play in a raid environment, and punishing a person that is learning its rotation or the encounter properly is not a good idea
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    If X is % better then Y, Y is bad. I hate that concept with the searing, burning unfathomable energy of a collapsing supergiant.

  10. #10
    I dont get this need to optimize lfr.
    If you care about or even know what an enchant is, lfr is clearly not for you.
    Its the tourist mode. Its for people who dont care, who like to see bosses drop and get loot, without actually having to pay attention to mechanics or not go afk, when somebody calls them.
    So 1-3 are completely counterproductive and about as good of an idea as only giving loot in heroicmode, if you were afk more than 5 minutes of the fight.
    4 might be a nice fun addition though, since rewarding positive behaviour works alot better than trying to force playstyles onto players (which just results in people not doing the content). Could lead to some people wondering what there is to do beyond the lootgiver menu.
    "And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five?
    A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head."

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Arishtat View Post
    Except that it is their problem. If you build an atmosphere and environment that encourages toxic behavior, people can/will eventually get sick of it, leading to either lack of use of said environment (in which case LFR becomes a waste of their development time = waste of their money) , or people that only ran LFR as their end game, forcing them out as well (loss of some subs = loss of money). No matter how you slice it, it is very much Blizz's problem, as well as the playerbase.
    If everyone would spend their energy more positive instead of making "punishment" ideas, all would benefit. Why are you all so fixated on "punishing" people? If you don't want to run LFR, then don't run LFR! If you don't want a scumbag to fill an important role like tanks, play yourself a tank!
    Being negative is easy. Being positive instead seems really hard.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumicide View Post
    Feature creep. The game is already suffering from it to help cure all the problems it created when it added all these "convenience" features in the first place.

    You want it to have atmosphere, basic cordiality, and competence again? There's no way to simulate it, just get rid of LFR/LFD, X-Server play, go back to the old gear budgets (BC), merge/disband servers aggressively, put in place a faction quota. If you want people to behave, put them in a room of people who they have to see tomorrow, the next day, and the next.
    But once you add convenience you can't rip it away. The genie is out of the lamp. See the outcry over flying? If you rip it away you create a different problem. Focusing on the problems they've created already before adding even more features would seem the way to go, not taking it all away.

  13. #13
    Mechagnome BEYR's Avatar
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    You'll never get a greats system based on random grouping. Period. There's no good way to weed out assholes. You may get rid of AFKers but the trolls will always be there. That's why they are pushing the raid browser and hoping to get people int flex(normal) next expansion. To give control of the group back to the players while still providing a queue-type system. I hope it works because kicking one or two assholes every boss for grief pulling is getting old. And expensive.
    Sometimes 'Merica happens, and you just have to deal with that.

  14. #14
    - Your idea to give enchant to unenchanted guys is good, but it needs to be active everywhere : you're not doing LFR to stuff yourself for better performing in LFR only. Give gems to. Make them soulbound so that it cannot be traded.

    - The punishment (i do not agree with guys saying that there is no need for it, because you can always init a vote kick yourself) needs to happen only in case of group failure : a wipe. Who cares if the group is 2 healed if the boss died ? who cared about the afk-er if the boss is dead ?

    The only thing that can be determined for sure at the moment is the case of enrage. We are sure that it is a dps fault. In that case, the 2 - 3 worst dps could be kicked.

    For tank and healers, it is really complex to find out who underperformed. For example a tank might have taken massive damage, but only because the other tank did not taunt. Or the other tank might have taunted, but the first tank taunted the boss back immediately, etc etc.

  15. #15
    The Patient JackHeart's Avatar
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    There is way to much work to set up such a system, and way to much room for errors and problems to be worth it.
    I am all for that people should get rewarded for job well done, but we should not punish people because they are not good enough or smart enough.

    And.. If a very well geared tank manage to get almost no damage and all dps moves out of the abilitis, then some healers wouldnt get loot?
    No so likely, but it might happen.
    Proud member of Swedish MMO gaming community "Swedish Game Corner"

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  16. #16
    I somewhat agree with the OP, but I have another suggestion. Instead of punishing bad players (we already have kicks for that), how about encouraging better play? As you said, put thresholds on damage taken/damage done/healing done and give the best players of the group +% chance on loot. If everyone fulfills the minimum for their role, everyone gets +%, the ones that don't just don't receive anything. It is a bit sketchy doing such a system and dealing with tanks, but I'm sure Blizzard can come up with something in those lines.

    I think this is a better approach, because it will not punish people that are lazy (a lot of people actually play WoW, because they can be lazy), so instead of hitting Blizzard on the subs number, just encourage better play.

  17. #17
    You shouldn't have a system that forces people to participate. The content should be fun/challenging enough that people want to and have to participate. That is the problem with LFR.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Arishtat View Post
    But once you add convenience you can't rip it away. The genie is out of the lamp. See the outcry over flying? If you rip it away you create a different problem. Focusing on the problems they've created already before adding even more features would seem the way to go, not taking it all away.
    Yea, I see it. And I'd ignore it. I'd tell them "Blizzard knows best™." What's the worst that can happen? Subs are already plummeting about as fast as they ever rose, and we're below late Pre-BC subscription numbers.
    Last edited by Lumicide; 2013-11-18 at 10:15 AM.

  19. #19
    Too many to quote so...few points.

    - Positive reinforcement is fine and dandy, and in an ideal world, is all that is needed. However, the game is not ideal. Not only that, but encouraging people to learn the fights, not stand in crap, and be active during the fights is needed. Why should someone stand in crap , die, and keep doing so and still have the game treat them like they did something of use? Odds are, they didn't. There's 0 excuse to not know what's coming up, and very few things are going to 1 shot someone if they stand in it. Encouraging better gameplay is key. Not just letting someone stand there and receive some gold/item because they showed up.

    - LFR is not just a tourist mode, no matter what people think. If it was, bosses wouldn't be able to kill anyone, no one would die, and it would reward no loot. It'd also never be used more than once. For some, it's a stepping stone, and for others it's the pinnacle of their raiding "career". So while it's easy to say "it's just LFR", it STILL is a raid.

    - It is impossible to kick every single asshole and troll that comes into LFR. The playerbase can only police so much of it.

    - Even if it is a bit of work, it isn't an impossibility. It can be built in as they design the encounters (we added something that puts a damaging pool on the ground? Let's add a counter to it to see how many times a player takes damage from it).

  20. #20
    Epic! Warlord Booty's Avatar
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    I always try. I've never AFKd in a boss fight. I'd hate to die right away to some mechanic or afk and then wipe at 2% and then have to waste another 15 minutes there. So I always try my moderate best.

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