Wow, already with the nerfs? On top of the 5% buff? Marrowgar nerf? Haven't like 80-90% of guilds downed him anyway?
Spoken like someone who has never tried to tank the onyxia whelps as a warrior. The onyxia whelps spawn in a long line over 5-10 seconds. This is a nightmare for a warrior tank because once you use thunderclap to aggro the first bunch the next bunch all fly right past you while it is still on cooldown. This means you have to use your shockwave for initial aggro on some before using your thunderclap (when it comes off of cooldown) for initial aggro on the last few. The problem this creates is that you have wildly variable threat on the whelps. Some will have only gotten hit by a single thunderclap and will get overaggrod again almost immediately when the DPS start to AoE. Combined with the way warrior threat for the most part just doesn't scale up to large numbers of adds and you have issues. A paladin or DK on the other hand can just put down consecration or DnD at the cave entrance and all the mobs aggro on him/her the moment they leave the cave.Originally Posted by KandyCane
A warrior certainly can tank onyxia whelps but your post betrays a severe lack of understanding of how warrior tanking mechanics work in practice. To an uneducated non-warrior you might easily look at shockwave and think "omg, warrior can just shockwave all the whelps and have great burst threat on them all" but its small, directional AoE combined with the encounter mechanics makes that impossible.
I think however that reflected damage (holy shield, thorns, retribution aura, fire shield, damage shield) are in many way the culprits on AoE tanking balance. They turn small threat advantages into large ones. If the paladin gets initial aggro then he gets extra threat from all that reflected damage while also denying the warrior the same threat. If as a warrior you get even a small headstart on threat this is enough to keep the mobs hitting you quite consistently. In general reflected damage is a magnifying effect on tank AoE threat since it makes small differences much more pronounced. The threat you get from reflection should be removed and added into each classes baseline abilities (i.e. increase thunderclap damage by an amount equal to two blocks worth of reflected damage and remove damage shield as a talent). Take a situation now where a paladin generates 1 more threat than the warrior on an AoE pull from abilities. This makes all the mobs hit him, proccing retribution aura, holy shield, fire shield and thorns every time they hit him. His 1 threat advantage is now a 1k TPS advantage because of all the reflected damage. Similarly if the warrior has a 1 threat advantage a similar thing happens, all the reflected damage turns that tiny advantage into a huge one.
A tank with all those reflected shields up does a huge amount of extra damage and threat to the point that once a mob is hitting you, no matter what class you are, it is almost impossible to get overaggrod by another tanks AoE threat. Reflected damage works fine as a tank DPS mechanic, as a tank TPS mechanic however it has a lot of negative impact on AoE tanking.
I do also think however that a lot of warriors are overstating how hard warriors have it on AoE threat, in Icecrown I notice no huge difference as a warrior tanking with a paladin vs a DK tanking with a paladin. Trying to solo tank it as a warrior however is vastly easier than solo tanking it as a DK (on rep farm runs for example). As a DK you cast death and decay, ps, it, pestillence and 3 seconds later your diseases start ticking on the mobs you pestillenced. That means for the first 6 seconds of each pull the only AoE threat you have is Death and Decay. It is very easy to get overaggrod in this time and almost impossible to recover from as a DK. As a warrior you have great opening burst threat on each pull and, lets be honest, most of the pulls in ICC are 4-6 mobs which is still small enough groups that warrior AoE threat continues to work pretty well.
Going further to the broader idea of needing CC on trash packs the main problem is that CC as a whole interacts really badly with all tanks AoE threat and with offspecs as they are it is never going to be viable to return to CC in raid instances anyway. On any trash where CC was going to be needed it will just be easier to have one or two DPS spec to tank and use 4 or 5 tanks all spamming AoE threat as opposed to 2 or 3 plus CC. On my guilds 25 man runs for example we usually have 3 tanks and another 3 or 4 people who could go tank with their offspec easily. Why would we ever bother with the hassle of CC where just using an extra 2 or 3 or 4 tanks is just as easy and probably faster overall. The only way to prevent this is to have specific mechanics that require CC but if you have to do that then the CC is being used because of the mechanic that forces you to CC as opposed to tanks just not being able to take the incoming damage.
I dont get anything but the saurfang nerf. The rest isn't needed.
'u get constant hit by ice shit from roof so you can travel instantly all across the room'
Yo dawg, we heard you like nerfs. So we put nerfs in your nerfs so you can raid while you raid!
Seriously though, Marrowgar? Of all fights? *Shrug*
I thought the 5% buff removed any need for further nerfs....
Could be true but your healers also need to keep up with the damage. And you lose dps from the people who respec. It just depends on how they change tanking and healing.Originally Posted by Skulver
For example the trash in Fel Reavers room. You couldn't just add a few tanks and AoE it. It would be unhealable and the engineers (or whatever those mobs were called) would repair the other mobs. It was hard trash, not like it is now.
Or the trash before Kael'thas his room. They hit like trucks. I wouldn't take a risk there and not CC really.
HURR DURR I LIEK NURFS ICECROWN IZ TOO HAWRD
Seriously tho... so many unwarranted nerfs its as though blizzard doesn't listen to their raiding core but they listen to bads saying icc is difficult
I thought the trash to BQL was a bit like this. I mean them tacticians are a pain in the ass. Maybe they should just add more trash like this.Originally Posted by Gilian
The problem on the Void Reaver (Fel Reaver, shame on you ) trash was the blades the mechanics used to cast which would do huge raid damage if you left them all up at once. This is not CC due to tank damage, it is CC because there is damage that kills the raid if not used. Like I said, they can always require you to CC by making an encounter mechanic that requires it, but the days when people used CC because if they didn't the tanks would take too much damage are gone.Originally Posted by Gilian
Those nerfs weren't really needed, only thing that needs a nerf is that frost giant for the weekly quest, he's just plain annoying, LULZ I SHALL KICK YOU IN THE AIR 300 TIMES AND THEN STUN YOU FOR THE REMAINING TIME
I can see them making following changes to blood queen as well, if you look at previous boss nerfs:
* 5 seconds extra time to bite a person
* the first air phase(25man) won't be as close to the time people have to bite
* no red beam near airphase or when ppl have to bite
What I am saying is that unless they introduce it via mechanics which can't be solved with either more tanks or more healers it will be ignored anyway.Originally Posted by Waterisbest
Apologies if someone has already asked this question but when are they being applied, have they already been applied to live servers (EU.) If they have already applied when was it.. just wanted to know if these would have been in place for our raid last night 21:00 - 24:00 EU server time.
If they were I think we may need to hang our collective heads in shame :S
We dont stop playing because we grow old,
We grow old because we stop playing
ahahahah, more marrowgar nerfs! a threat dump on a boss in the final raid of the expansion? TO HARD REMOVE !
any1 else have lowfps(30fps in 25man) problems with ATI HD 5970 cards?
or is it cuz i have settings on max?
The point is: Unholy is more than worthy of its raid spot. Anything to the contrary is utterly incorrect, be it coming from some random forum troll, a fellow guildmate, or an ignorant Blood/Frost DK.
You can discuss Warrior threat issues and mechanics issues all you want, but what does that have to do with Paladins? What a Paladin does or do not do has no bearing on a Warrior. In other words, you do NOT need to nerf one to buff the other.
As for Paladin tanking I have noticed these two issues with regards to AOE:
1. I must use AOE abilities to deal single target threat.
2. AOE (5+ mobs) threat is low, if constant, and easily overaggroed unless it is undead mobs.
A "fix" could simply be splitting Hammer of Righteousness into two abilities - one with no target cap but say 20-30% lower damage and one with a target cap of 1.
Or simply reduce all tanks AOE threat to a point where CC is once again required. I loved raiding TBC.
Unrelated to the current topic: which DK need more threat on Icy Touch? Maybe Unholy, but the other two specs being unable to pull enough threat is a matter of laziness (or having forgotten to make ALL abilities into macros starting with "/cast !Rune Strike" - which is a requirement to tank as DK even before crit immune)
have a nice banOriginally Posted by Valanna
this is strange.first they give us this nice buff for icc and then they nerf so many things that shouldnt be nerfed?man.......
Mal'Ganis is DEAD!Deal with it!