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  1. #21

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    Keep in mind that a lot of people are 3 healing the 10 man on all fights. I'd be willing to guess that most of the people saying Disc is good in 10s are 3 healing and have a Druid. In that case, Disc is better. Not that 3 healing is needed in ICC10 (exceptions for a couple hard modes, Lich King, Dreamwalker and Sindragosa).

    Lots of people make their in game decisions and get their experience in bad group compositions, so it looks like they're on some kind of amazing new drug to people who are in good groups. There are some other times when Disc is great in 10s, but if there is a Paladin involved you should almost always be Holy.

  2. #22

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    There are some other times when Disc is great in 10s, but if there is a Paladin involved you should almost always be Holy.
    I've been duo-healing ICC with a disc/holy priest partner on my pally and I wouldn't quite agree. The only fights that holy really worked better than disc were BQ, Sindragosa and Valithria. The others the flexibility of Disc was extremely nice - the shields buying time till my HL bombs landed on the foolish dps who'd stood in fire or whatever.

    However - holy worked SO much better on those 3 that if the priest was only gonna have one healing spec then I'd agree, he should be holy if his partner is a pally.

  3. #23

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    You have to remember that most fights in ICC10 can be healed by Shadow Priests if they're good. So if you happen to have an excellent Priest then Disc will work just fine. It's not so much the spec though, since Holy handles the fights better when tank healing isn't really needed. Now, if he's good as Disc and really bad as Holy that's a different story. Either way, I wasn't saying it's impossible as Disc, just that it's easier as Holy. Remember those foolish DPS that needed a HL bomb? Well, they'd most likely have been picked up by the Holy Priest without your intervention otherwise. Remember, what Holy is good at is sniping heals.

  4. #24
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    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddy
    I guess I don't understand how like 5 people in this post can say that disc is the greater throughput spec in 10 mans, for example on blood queen... How is a disc going to compete with a holy priest? I guess I'm asking for some actual numbers and data aside from yo homey disc > holy yo.
    Yeah, yeah, BQ, Sindragosa and Valithria for Holy.
    To me, if maths's not an opinion, means 9 to 3 for Disc's flexibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Lots of people make their in game decisions and get their experience in bad group compositions, so it looks like they're on some kind of amazing new drug to people who are in good groups. There are some other times when Disc is great in 10s, but if there is a Paladin involved you should almost always be Holy.
    HPaladin and DPriest is an awesome combo, again, except for those 3 bosses.


    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    You have to remember that most fights in ICC10 can be healed by Shadow Priests if they're good. So if you happen to have an excellent Priest then Disc will work just fine. It's not so much the spec though, since Holy handles the fights better when tank healing isn't really needed. Now, if he's good as Disc and really bad as Holy that's a different story. Either way, I wasn't saying it's impossible as Disc, just that it's easier as Holy. Remember those foolish DPS that needed a HL bomb? Well, they'd most likely have been picked up by the Holy Priest without your intervention otherwise.

    Remember, what Holy is good at is sniping heals.
    You're making statements out of no really evidence, Holy for starters ain't easier than Discipline, Discipline isn't a "TankSpecOnly" tree, plus, the last phrase is better left unanswered because is horrifying.

  5. #25

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    Uh, no. Okay, you've got a ~9k shield every 15 seconds. Penance heals about as much as Holy Light, but only every 8 seconds. In between you've got Flash Heal, or Greater Heal versus Holy Light. Seriously, you're talking about a class that is limited purely by overhealing and incoming damage so much that they do not ever stack for throughput versus one who has enough throughput problems that they gear entirely for spellpower. 20% is being kind to Disc based on DA. The difference is massive. It's an issue. It's been an issue since Ulduar.

    Izenhart, it's a good combo on fights that require low raid healing. It's great on Saurfang, Deathwhisper, Marrowgar, Rotface, Princes, Gunship, but Holy does fine on all of those. Meanwhile Holy has an advantage on all the AOE damage fights when two healing with a Paladin. Not much of a thought process needed for why. Holy is good at steady raid healing. It's not about tank healing, Holy will have to do a bit as well on some fights as well. It's about Renew outscaling PW:S. AOE damage in ICC is mostly either avoidable (Sindragosa), or steady light damage (Putricide, BQ, Festergut, etc). Since it's not serious life threatening damage what you run into is Renew simply doing more per GCD than PW:S. Same with CoH.

  6. #26

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    You're greatly over-estimating your healing. I know that may be hard to swallow, but keep in mind that Paladins will be spamming Holy Light with a cast time of 1.2-1.3 seconds. Compare this to your casting speed which is most likely 1.1-1.2. Holy Light hits non crit for 25-30% more than Flash Heal will crit for. You might not believe this, but it's the truth. Go ask a Paladin to throw a few HLs your way. 10-12k non-crit is pretty ordinary. Compare that to your best crits with Flash Heal. You'll instead find that their Holy Light is on par with your Penance and even if you crit 100% of the time and included the 30% shield from DA you'd be behind with Flash Heal.

    As far as Algalon? Good luck finding a kill that isn't out-gearing it that is also double healing it, instead of triple. I was Disc on our first kill of him in 10 and 25. That's the thing though, you think Disc is the best single target healer and think I'm saying Disc is bad on tanks. Neither is true. Disc is worse on tanks than Paladins, but Disc is also the best second healer on tanks. Holy Paladins can single heal things that Disc Priests have massive problems on. Even single tank fights. The difference is that two Holy Paladins will struggle with things that a Disc + Holy Paladin wouldn't struggle on.

    Anyway, I'd suggest you go ask a Paladin to spam heal you for a few. The amount of output isn't even close. The closest Disc can do is stacking up over 900 haste and GH spamming with Penance on CD and keeping up WS. That brings them up above Shaman, almost equal with Druids and yes, about 20% behind Paladins purely on one target.

  7. #27

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    Might want to actually look some up. For instance:

    Paladins: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/.../Holy_Paladin/
    Disc Priests: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ipline_Priest/

    Pure single tank fight with limited raid damage. If you look up the other healers you'll find that Disc is dead last. It's just the way it is. I know you're happy with your Disc Priest, but understanding your weaknesses is an important part of the game. Trying to argue that Disc wins on single target healing just isn't going to work. Spamming on a single target Paladins can exceed 10k HPS without much of a problem. Druids can break 9k with some effort. Shamans usually float in the 8k neighborhood. Disc is usually just beneath that with Holy just beneath them.

    I should have stopped trying when I saw this:

    Quote Originally Posted by smeegoan
    FOL spam just doesnt do what we do. learn your class.
    If you don't understand the classes in question then you shouldn't be trying to debate them.

  8. #28

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    Yeah, hate to break it to you... That's a single tank fight with very low raid damage. You won't find an ICC fight with less raid damage than Rotface. Go ahead and look at the records for any fight in ICC though. Disc isn't close on any fight except Lich King and the fights they do best on are fights where they raid heal.

    So again, go find a decent Paladin and compare healing output. Go ahead and add 15-20% to that from Divine Aegis, but actually look at the output difference. What you're going to find is that the average FH is ~6-7k, which means even with 100% crit that's an average of about 9k. Then you'll compare that to the Paladin equivalent, which is Holy Light, and you'll find that the average is about 11k.

    And if you want to claim that Holy Light and Flash Heal shouldn't be compared then you might as well admit you've never run with a half decent Paladin. The two spells are used in the same way on tanks. Bringing up Flash of Light is basically admitting to basing your argument on easy content. Flash of Light is only used when healing is so light that the Paladin just doesn't care. Also, if you want to argue about who can heal a single target the best, then you need to include beacon. Why? Because while the Disc Priest is healing someone else they are not healing the tank except with a single spell that has limited use (PoH), meanwhile the Paladin will always be on that tank regardless of who they are targeting with spells.

    Find a Druid, find a Paladin, or find a Shaman. See who can put out healing the fastest. I can save you some time though: Paladin > Druid > Disc (GH builds) > Shaman > Disc (FH builds) > Holy. Hasn't changed in a while. Technically there are two tiers of Druid heals on tanks, due to glyph/spec choices, but even the pure raid healing spec is technically better on a single target than Shaman/Disc, so it doesn't matter.

  9. #29

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    Learn to read. Holy Light is a single target heal. Have a nice day troll.

  10. #30

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    @ Smeegoan, I'll put it to you as simply as possible, a holy paladin with ALWAYS be better than any other healer at tank healing. Going off my guilds log on a random fight, our paladin's holy light hits for an average of 13.3-16.5k, this includes crits. Holy paladin's should be rocking enough haste to get there HL down to 1.5-1.7 cast. So basically assuming HL hits for an average of 15k and is a 1.5second cast, that is effectively 10,000 HPS without beacon. Now i understand 10,000 HPS isn't possible due to both tank avoidance and the tanks not taking that kind of damage but still you can see the healing potential they hold.

    Now a disc priest, i might be wrong here about how a disc priest MT heals because quite frankly i've never seen it done, but I'd assume its a FH spam, with penance in between. Penance hits for say 4.5k every 0.5 seconds, equating to 13.5k over 1.5seconds; flash heal hitting for 5.8k every 1second. So assuming these haste values and amounts you would say that a dics priest would tank heal with Penance, FHx8 repeat; this over 9.5 seconds. So basically:

    13.5k + (5.8k x 8 ) = 59.9k, round it up to 60k cause i'm a nice guy
    Divide this by 9.5 that is 6.3k HPS.

    So in closing 10,000 HPS on a tank, potentially 20,000 if you need to heal two tanks vs 6.3k HPS, i would chose paladin anyday, and trust me any guild attempting hardmodes uses a paladins MT healing. Also for disc priest buffs on the tank, these can be put on by a good disc priest if needed as he can Penance for grace procs and PW:S for the actual PW:S shield buff and also Renewed hope.

    Logs i uses for numbers:
    http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...Light%28R13%29
    http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...0Heal%28R11%29
    http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...enance%28R4%29

  11. #31

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    Smeegoan, no Disc Priest can counter a back to back 30k hit. You can't time Weakened Soul for those, because (*hiya festergut*) they happen back, to back, to back, to back... Sure, it might be a short phase, but they happen either unpredictably (with the exception of one of Arthas' Soul Reaper/melee swings), or they happen predictably but repeatedly in a very short time frame. There is no "You just prevented it" because it doesn't work like that.

    Weakened Soul prevents your top ability to do so from actually affecting more than one hit, plus your ability to time for said burst other than the first second of it. Your Penance/Greater combo works once as well, but Penance has a cooldown, and with all the haste in the world (but no Borrowed Time, go ahead and try to justify shielding a random to keep it up) Greater is still a slow workhorse.

    Hate to say it, but you couldn't be further from the truth. And there's a reason people haven't been using Discipline as a tank healer since Ulduar.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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  12. #32

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    Quote Originally Posted by smeegoan
    the point is survivability. in a typical raid setting a tank has np getting picked up over 3 seconds time. what does tanks in is getting rapidly smashed in an insanely short amount of time. especially while people are moving. *hiya festergut* or Beasts (yes weak examples) or hell LK when moving in and out for defile. but those are ones that I remember tanks getting two shot. there is no pally healer in the world that can counter a 0.07 second back to back 30k hit. a disc priest already did. tank healing often isnt a matter of getting them topped back up. its a matter of not friggin letting them die in two seconds.
    You seem to be forgeting the fact that tanks also have defensive cooldowns to prevent/mitigate the insane damage. Most of those "OMG big hit" moments are predictable and if a tank doesn't know how to manage their CDs, no amount of healing would save them and I would fault the tank more than the healer.

  13. #33

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    Quote Originally Posted by smeegoan
    certainly offset by a pws and some DA stacks. and with mitigation those have the time to build.

    I see the HPS arguments, and I'm not saying solo disc heal 25 man tanks. the simple end of the conversation was best single target healer.

    imo 75k hp tank with 13 percent damage reduction vrs 60k hit with pally spam? i'll give it to the 75k hp tank. kkthx bye
    Then either you don't have much experience/ information on hardmodes or for some reason you are using a priest in HM to MT heal, which makes me cringe at the thought of it.

    Also please note that 13% of 60k is not 75k, but 67800. So effectively its a " 68000 tank with a disc priest vs 60000 with a holy paladin - I'd take that paldain".

  14. #34

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Hate to say it, but you couldn't be further from the truth. And there's a reason people haven't been using Discipline as a tank healer since Ulduar.
    Oh come on! First blanket statements one way, now the other? You know me too well to think I won't over-react to that! Disc is still the best second healer to put on a tank! *foams at the mouth* Well.. no... even that isn't true. Let me amend that... they're the best second healer to put on a tank if there is no damage aura. Damage Auras prevent full DA stacking during avoidance streaks and make Disc pretty horrible backup healers

    Anyway, people who actually understand the way raids have been working understand the healing situation. I'm too tired to bother with random troll #645 anymore. Disc kept up until Plague, fell behind massively until LK, yada yada. Disc was a great tank healer in Naxx, fell behind in Ulduar, more in ToC, more in ICC, yada yada. Ignorance of Holy having Inspiration, blah blah. Random straw man crap, yawn. If you can't be bothered to even look up the relative strength of the abilities involved I'm not sure why I wasted any time at all. This is what happens on my non raid nights. Blech.

    Edit: What the hell, I won't be around might as well feed the troll -- My main isn't a Paladin. My main isn't a Priest. My main isn't a Druid. I have all three in T10 as healers, but none are my main. My main is a Warlock. My Priest was retired as my main in ToC because when doing alt Drake runs my Druid got a uh... mace. Shifted mains because of 3.3 changes to Demo and having a bunch of shyte Locks. I have weekly raids for all four as well. Though, my Pally still needs his LK achievement (mostly because my Priest wasn't there :P). Nom nom troll bait. Zomg Warlock. :

  15. #35

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    Keep in mind that a lot of people are 3 healing the 10 man on all fights. I'd be willing to guess that most of the people saying Disc is good in 10s are 3 healing and have a Druid. In that case, Disc is better. Not that 3 healing is needed in ICC10 (exceptions for a couple hard modes, Lich King, Dreamwalker and Sindragosa).

    Lots of people make their in game decisions and get their experience in bad group compositions, so it looks like they're on some kind of amazing new drug to people who are in good groups. There are some other times when Disc is great in 10s, but if there is a Paladin involved you should almost always be Holy.
    100% truth.

    To the OP, honestly there are many different ways to play the holy priest. With so many variables in the mix (Such as having a different raid composition, specific fights, your current spec), you should be able to change your play style on the fly to adapt to the situation, and that is something that comes with time and practice.

    Yes, holy priests are not the greatest tank healers, but it can still be done. Proper use of flash heal, 3 stack serendipity Greater heal, PoM bouncing and renew application can still do some descent results. Don't forget that Inspiration will reduce physical damage by 10%, and if you're "spamming" the tank, it's always going to be up. BUT, even after all of this, a holy paladin that fell asleep on their keyboard will still out heal you on tanks.

    The type of fight makes a HUGE difference in what you cast, a few examples:

    Blood queen I use PoM and CoH on every cooldown, and renew in between. Depending on what other healers there are, I put PoM on a different target. If there is a resto shammy, there's a good chance that mele is pretty well covered, so I PoM, CoH, and renew the ranged. I only ever use flash heal on targets of Pact of the Darkfallen, because they take such spiked damage from it. Fights like this, I usually also throw on two pieces of Tier9 for the set bonus. another 20% to each PoM bounce is amazing when you know that every single cast on every cooldown will have every single charge used.

    Lady Deathwhisper I keep renew up on the tanks, PoM on the tanks on cooldown, and fill in down time with flash heals on the raid and tanks (hopefully most of these flash heals are Surge of Light procs, saving mana). I save CoH for Death and Decay (When it hits, it doesn't usually do damage RIGHT away, so I'll wait about 1.5 seconds to hit the people in that area so it has the best healing effect without overhealing). When phase two comes around, I keep renew on the tanks, PoM and PoH on cooldown, and fill in with renews on the raid.

    Gunship Battle I stand on the edge of our ship viewing the other. I keep renews on both tanks and PoM the tank on my boat, CoH on target on either boat depending if there is a bit of extra raid damage, then fill in with flash heal spam on the remote tank since he ends up taking a major beating after a while.

    Lord Marrowgar My raid group does the strategy where we sit on the boss's ass during the normal phase, so damage taken is minimal. I keep renew on the two tanks, PoM on the tanks on every cooldown, and fill in with flash heals. When people get impaled, I throw a single flash heal on each of them then return to the tank duty, because they're usually busted out by then. When Bone Storm is about to start, I pop a PoM on a ranged target (the reason is all charges will be used up fast, and with an early PoM cast the cooldown will be up again sooner), then prestack renew. When bonestorm hits, I use PoM, CoH on every cooldown, and fill in with renew. Only flash heal on low people, and hopefully it's with a Surge of Light proc, so I can keep moving.

    Some fights, I never cast flash heal, while others I cast it a TON. It really depends on A. The encounter, B. The raid composition, and C. your spec (which should actually be modified to better serve the results of A and B).

    If you have two holy paladins in a ten man, then you are raid healing like crazy. Depending on the fight, this can be some to a ton, get the talents required for that. If you're in there with a resto shammy and resto druid, then you're probably going to be tank and raid healing, but more emphasis on tank healing.

    Something I didn't mention, I use Power Word: Shield fairly often, but not for the shield effect. In my basic talent spec, I have Body and Soul, and while tons of people will poopoo this talent, It's saved raids from wiping over and over again, when used correctly. For example, on sindragosa last week, two people got the ice tomb target, and they are to run away from the raid and get apart from eachother by something like 15 yards. Both targets ran to the same spot. The raid leader yelled "bob you go right!" A "speedy bubble" (Body and Soul, + 60% run speed for 4 seconds) on the right person got him to the needed distance away from the other guy JUST in time. I can't count the number of times I've been able to put a "speedy bubble" on someone who would either die, or cause other people to die, thus preventing the deaths. It also gets you good brownie points when you save your guild master's ass from death because he didn't know the orange ooze was chasing him on Putricide till the last second. :P Unfortunately, if you run with a disc priest, then this is next to worthless as the disc priest will have bubbles on close to everyone.

    Good luck in your holy priest exploration. I know this is one of those "too long didn't read" threads, but I like to add some detail. Back in BC, I wrote up a huge guide on how to heal as a priest, something like 30 pages. For most people, they would never read that, but it was able to help a few people that were really hardcore in wanting to know how the priest works. It is horribly outdated now, but someday I'll do it again for Wrath, or just wait for Cat.

    When done well, the Holy Priest is a great healer. When done poorly, it's depressing. A lot of people will see a bad priest and just assume the holy priest sucks. There were a few PuG's I tried to get into for ToC (since my guild no longer runs it) and they rejected me because "priests suck." Go be a good holy priest! :-)

  16. #36

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    I personally think anyone who tank heals as disc is doing it wrong- its not as good as their raid heals. Mad shields = saves TONS of healing needed. Well timed lets on festerguts exhale, if you have enough people shielded you get all your mana back for each one that breaks- the ICD doesnt effect multiple shields procing at same time.
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    Lets say your playing a FPS, you have all your buttons key-bound by default. Now lets say your really stubborn and decide that you want to make it so you have to be able to use your mouse. You now use keys to aim, and use your mouse to select weapons and shoot. Obviously no one does that..for a reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Damntastic View Post
    wotlk champs wants to run through instances like fucking mario

  17. #37

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    (To Freakinweirdo)

    I found your post most intriguing, and i got alot of usefull hints for when i face some of the ICC bosses you named in your post. Thanks again for posting your thoughts and opinions ;D

  18. #38

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    There are a lot of good sources of information and a wealth of information contained in this article:

    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...p-of-Your-Game

    Hope this helps!

  19. #39

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    Quote Originally Posted by Weena2
    Neither priest spec is strong at tank healing, they fall behind both shamans and paladins, and no druid should ever solely tank heal. Your holy priest is mainly there to raid heal, and your disc priest is mainly there to PW:S and to a lesser degree raid heal. If your constantly bringing any priest spec to tank heal you either don't have any shamans or paladins or aren't utilizing your class makeup correctly.
    You seem to have some huge misconception about druid healers; while we might not get close to paladins, we sure give any other healer a run for his money. We have 3 singletarget hots providing a lot of steady healing, an emergency ability on a short cooldown(swiftmend), and we have a 1sec flash heal critting for about 12-14k with ~50% crit chance, leaving a seed on the target healing for 30% of a critical heal on the next hit

  20. #40

    Re: Holy Spec Clarification...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakydei
    You seem to have some huge misconception about druid healers; while we might not get close to paladins, we sure give any other healer a run for his money. We have 3 singletarget hots providing a lot of steady healing, an emergency ability on a short cooldown(swiftmend), and we have a 1sec flash heal critting for about 12-14k with ~50% crit chance, leaving a seed on the target healing for 30% of a critical heal on the next hit
    I'm pretty sure it goes Paladin > Druid > Shaman > Disc Priest > Holy Priest, in terms of ability to solo heal a tank. But that is also considering that Druids also can spec a certain way to be able to tank heal more effectively.

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