1. #1

    Enh Sham: Does armp every outpace hit on gear?

    So last night we downed 25 council (surprise, no seducer) and http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50071/t...the-wasteland/ dropped. Currently I have the crafted icc boots on, and this item got me thinking: at some point can armpen be decent enough to take over hit? (i didn't roll on the boots because a hunter with wrathful pvp boots who we just picked up needed them) : I've heard/read about the crit cap, and I'm still using http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/47115/deaths-verdict/ so more hit could be seen as beneficial to curb this. But if crit cap wasn't so important, (and it doesn't sound terribly threatening, tbh) then in a comparison like the item above where hit and armpen are interchangeable, would leaning towards armpen seem alright? (seems both are simply effecting your white hits the most, anyhow)

    Now i know, sim it comes to mind, but i was really interested in getting your thoughts on the matter, and i know I'm not the first to ask this question, so let me tag on another: Is armpen simply fail for a lack of scaling? (in the fact that hit + haste could be seen as scaling) and what would its rating conversion need to be for us for it to become worthwhile (not haste good, just better).

    P.S. Thanks for reading

  2. #2

    Re: Enh Sham: Does armp every outpace hit on gear?

    ArP is a stat that does MUCH better as it gets stacked. Now if your a Fury warrior, rogue, in some cases cat, armor pen hits those numbers "700+" where its godly. But for a enhance shaman "usually around the 40-120 ArP" you would give up so many stats that your DPS would fall short of even bad.

    Hit after the spell cap does continue to provide a plus for us. More white melee hits means more chances at both WF procs, and even better Maelstrom Weapon procs. Now this doesn't mean stack hit either.


    But what it really comes down to, go with the hit over the ArP, you will get more benefit from the hit then the ArP.

  3. #3

    Re: Enh Sham: Does armp every outpace hit on gear?

    You've got the basic analysis of the two stats correct, I would wager if the crit cap were not a problem then ArP would outscale hit, ArP boosts White, SS and WF damage, hit increases white, MWLB, FT and LS damage, but not as much as armor pen will. The thing is the crit cap IS a problem, very much compounded by the fact that there are 0 pieces of mail in ICC 25 without crit strike rating. When at the crit cap extra hit rating converts misses directly to crits. This boosts the value of hit rather immensely.
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  4. #4

    Re: Enh Sham: Does armp every outpace hit on gear?

    I just calculated various hit capped gearsets in EnhSim, hit EP was always ~0.2 better than ArP. Can bring proof if someone really wants it, or you could test it yourself.

  5. #5

    Re: Enh Sham: Does armp every outpace hit on gear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fornaw
    You've got the basic analysis of the two stats correct, I would wager if the crit cap were not a problem then ArP would outscale hit, ArP boosts White, SS and WF damage, hit increases white, MWLB, FT and LS damage, but not as much as armor pen will. The thing is the crit cap IS a problem, very much compounded by the fact that there are 0 pieces of mail in ICC 25 without crit strike rating. When at the crit cap extra hit rating converts misses directly to crits. This boosts the value of hit rather immensely.
    Isnt there a TON of math on the fact that a missed swing is not a missed crit, seeing as crit is based off of a Hit, and that a miss should never be thought of as a missed crit.

  6. #6

    Re: Enh Sham: Does armp every outpace hit on gear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneleg
    Isnt there a TON of math on the fact that a missed swing is not a missed crit, seeing as crit is based off of a Hit, and that a miss should never be thought of as a missed crit.
    two words: CRIT CAP. tons of math on this too.
    when you are over the crit cap, every single hit point you get until you get below the cap again WILL turn into critical white strikes.
    10 years ago we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash. Now we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

  7. #7

    Re: Enh Sham: Does armp every outpace hit on gear?

    Thanks for the thoughts. That's what i was really wondering. I myself am not profoundly familiar with how much armpen it takes to get how much, but it does seem like a bit can go along way, and was curious, with all these off pieces with armpen on them, how maybe 300-400 would be, once in say BIS gear or close to it. But I guess with this crit cap scare armpen has lost any shot at being a stat we like, and with its removal post 3.3.x, we're just not going to see what it could do.

    I know I myself, back in naxx, had a grimtoll for a long while, and it was fun for its time =) (and yes I TOTALLY ninja'd it) /jokes

  8. #8

    Re: Enh Sham: Does armp every outpace hit on gear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneleg
    Isnt there a TON of math on the fact that a missed swing is not a missed crit, seeing as crit is based off of a Hit, and that a miss should never be thought of as a missed crit.
    Normally, you would be correct.

    However, in ICC gear, we're rocking ~70% melee crit rates.

    (EMPHASIS: ROUGH MATH IS ROUGH) for all of our white swings against a level 83 mob (any raid boss):

    24% will be glancing blows
    27% minus hit chance will be misses
    4.8% of crits will be converted to hits
    (crit chance).

    So right off the bat, even if you were white hit capped, you'd still have ~28-29% non-crits on white swings. They key is, that's... about where our crit is, raidbuffed, currently. That leaves a theoretical potential max crit cap of 71%.

    If you're hitting 95% of the time (thus, 24% glancing, 71% hits, max of ~67.5% crit rate), and you crit 69.5% of the time, 2% of those crits are not capable of happening. White swings are on a one-roll system (i.e. roll 1-100, 1-24 is glancing, 25-29 are misses, etc), so adding hit while over the crit cap DIRECTLY increases your crit rate on white hits.

    When crit capped, hit is usually at least as good as AP for increasing your DPS, sometimes it reaches values near haste.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...trellen/simple (Enhancement PvE)
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...l/alamo/simple (Boomkin/Guardian, PvE)

    No, I'm not the real Alamo, just a guy who liked his work.

  9. #9

    Re: Enh Sham: Does armp every outpace hit on gear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax Omen
    Normally, you would be correct.

    However, in ICC gear, we're rocking ~70% melee crit rates.

    (EMPHASIS: ROUGH MATH IS ROUGH) for all of our white swings against a level 83 mob (any raid boss):

    24% will be glancing blows
    27% minus hit chance will be misses
    4.8% of crits will be converted to hits
    (crit chance).

    So right off the bat, even if you were white hit capped, you'd still have ~28-29% non-crits on white swings. They key is, that's... about where our crit is, raidbuffed, currently. That leaves a theoretical potential max crit cap of 71%.

    If you're hitting 95% of the time (thus, 24% glancing, 71% hits, max of ~67.5% crit rate), and you crit 69.5% of the time, 2% of those crits are not capable of happening. White swings are on a one-roll system (i.e. roll 1-100, 1-24 is glancing, 25-29 are misses, etc), so adding hit while over the crit cap DIRECTLY increases your crit rate on white hits.

    When crit capped, hit is usually at least as good as AP for increasing your DPS, sometimes it reaches values near haste.
    No.

    The maximum potential crit cap is 80.8%. The 4.8% crit conversion to hits was a result of wrongly interpreted recount data.

    The way you calculate crit cap is 100 - glancing (24%) - dodge (0% when exp capped) - parry (0% when attacking from behind) - block (0% when attacking from behind) - miss rate + crit depression (4.8% against boss level mobs)

  10. #10

    Re: Enh Sham: Does armp every outpace hit on gear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Butu
    No.

    The maximum potential crit cap is 80.8%. The 4.8% crit conversion to hits was a result of wrongly interpreted recount data.

    The way you calculate crit cap is 100 - glancing (24%) - dodge (0% when exp capped) - parry (0% when attacking from behind) - block (0% when attacking from behind) - miss rate + crit depression (4.8% against boss level mobs)
    Almost correct.

    [quote=http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t87972-enhancement_critical_cap_analysis_tow_hotc/p3/#post1567779]Crit depression is still a real phenomenon, which means when attacking a boss target 4.8% of your melee crit goes poof. What was wrong was the concept that 4.8% of crit was converted to hits and that those hits couldn't be removed by just adding additional melee crit. So 80.8% is the correct figure for the amount of melee crit required to push hits completely off the table.

  11. #11

    Re: Enh Sham: Does armp every outpace hit on gear?

    He was correct.

    100%-24%(glancing) -0(dodge)-0(parry)-miss%+4.8%

    -24+4.8=19.2

    100-19.2=80.8 assuming you are at the dual wield melee hit cap of 27% (your hit rating + 6% from talents) and are unable to miss.

    What does this mean? It means that as long as we are nearing the threshold into our personal melee crit caps, hit is going to outscale ArP because it will increase our range for getting crits while ArP will only grant a flat damage boost.

  12. #12

    Re: Enh Sham: Does armp every outpace hit on gear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Applesaus
    He was correct.

    100%-24%(glancing) -0(dodge)-0(parry)-miss%+4.8%

    -24+4.8=19.2

    100-19.2=80.8 assuming you are at the dual wield melee hit cap of 27% (your hit rating + 6% from talents) and are unable to miss.

    What does this mean? It means that as long as we are nearing the threshold into our personal melee crit caps, hit is going to outscale ArP because it will increase our range for getting crits while ArP will only grant a flat damage boost.
    I think you missed my point. He was/is correct about the cap, but incorrect about the crit depression. That 4.8% wasn't an error, it was an actual phenomenon as demonstrated by the testing done in my provided link.

  13. #13
    Deleted

    Re: Enh Sham: Does armp every outpace hit on gear?

    Quote Originally Posted by lycian
    I think you missed my point. He was/is correct about the cap, but incorrect about the crit depression. That 4.8% wasn't an error, it was an actual phenomenon as demonstrated by the testing done in my provided link.
    He said
    Quote Originally Posted by Butu
    The 4.8% crit conversion to hits was a result of wrongly interpreted recount data.
    Which is 100% correct about the crit depression and is precisely what was said in the thread you quoted, and reflected in the changes I made to EnhSim and Rawr.

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