Please remove the "idea" sticky

[Copain]

There's no point to it. People still make idea topics for new skills or skill reworks and our mods don't enforce it. So it'd just be better to remove it so it stops taking up space on the page at this point.

[DaGhostDS]

or enforce it to the max

[Copain]

or enforce it to the max

Not trying to be rude, but it's unlikely these days. Mods aren't even trying to pretend they don't see them, they post right in them xD..

[iktankniet]

Not trying to be rude, but it's unlikely these days. Mods aren't even trying to pretend they don't see them, they post right in them xD..

i cannot keep an eye out on mmo constantly, but when i see 1, i will delete it

[Copain]

Copain-dono, what is it with you that you constantly bash people for their ideas?..

I bash Ideas I disagree with, which is mostly "Increasing our DPS by fifty percent is the only way to fix Paladins" >_>.

My problem is that I saw a lot of topics being made, even though the mods said not to. It's great if they watched it, but considering a mod started posting in the topic in response instead of actually doing something about it, I'd rather have something that takes up useless space removed.

Thank you though, Ik =).

[Prentice]

you've got a point there, tho i dont recall a single time when you actually called a single idea *good* or *balance-wise* :3

Have you honestly seen a good idea lately?? We are paladins. We can survive damn near anything as any spec. When spec'd properly we can deal very respectable damage, provide extremely strong heals, or be the ideal focal point for a boss. What more do you want?

Do we need an MS, Gap closer, interrupt? Nope. Sure, it'd be nice. Sadly, the majority of the ideas presented on these forums are just painting those abilities a different color by giving them some kind of holy name.

The class is amazing and viable for PvE and PvP in all three specs. I don't think any other class can claim that aside from druids. Hell, most classes can't claim viability for either PvP or PvE for all three trees.

Back on topic, I generally avoid the sticky and any stray new idea posts because they are regurgitated versions of the same thing someone else spit out the day before. Trying to corral them up in a single thread was a good idea, but unless someone is willing to redirect every other post, it won't work.

I'd drop the sticky, let people post their ideas, and let them fall off of page 1 in due time. Only a real forum nazi could keep this system running the way it was intended.

[Copain]

you've got a point there, tho i dont recall a single time when you actually called a single idea *good* or *balance-wise* :3

The problem with inventing skills, is an actually balanced one, that wouldn't require a nerf somewhere else, or wouldn't require a stupidly long tooltip, is boring to the public here.

AN example would be a passive skill that you learn from trainers that boost damage against undead by 1%, is it a boost? Yeah. Is it strong enough to require a nerf? No. Is it something anyone here would go "Oh that's cool" to? Hell no.

If someone invents a nice skill that's balanced, I'd be all for it. But going off with a bunch of complicated abilities dedicated to random things while making other spec's job harder, is wrong. Additionally, I dislike it when people are all like "OH, they should rework Paladins like this, it'd make them harder to play and it'd give the good ones a damage boost!" The point is, we do fine damage, everything doesn't have to end with "Damage boost," but it almost always does =/.


edit: basically what Pretenice said. Sure it'd be nice to have certain spells, but "OMG PALLIES SUCK GIVE US THIS NOW" is not needed and annoying.

[eatflesh]

i mean, yeah we got defensive utlities, but so do all other classes, yeah we got support utilities, but so do others, yeah we got heals, but so do shamans and druids aswell, and noone gives a damn that druids can charge, cc like hell, shamans can interrupt and support with damage while being restore specced.
passive agressive bullshit..

is it all what happens to paladins just because of bubble?..
i just dont want accept it.

i mean, yeah we got defensive utlities, but so do all other classes, yeah we got support utilities, but so do others, yeah we got heals, but so do shamans and druids aswell, and noone gives a damn that druids can charge, cc like hell, shamans can interrupt and support with damage while being restore specced.
passive agressive bullshit..

is it all what happens to paladins just because of bubble?..
i just dont want accept it.

you sure?
i mean, have you ever been to arena?

You DO know you can edit posts to amalgamate them right?

[Prentice]

you sure?
i mean, have you ever been to arena?

By simply checking my lack of arena achievements, you could have answered that question yourself. I don't care for arenas at all. That being said, you appear to have a 1v1 mentality as it applies to arena if you think we need those abilities. Successful ret comps, not even talking about 2v2, would have these abilities provided by one of the team members. We don't have to be an all-in-one package. We already have an incredible skill set that, when used properly, is game changing. What other class can undo debuffs the way a pally can, protect teammates the way a pally can, and fill every role imaginable the way a pally can??

Like it or not, a pally's job in arena is to be the most annoying opponent any other team could possibly face. Break their CC's, remove their debuffs, protect your teammates, heal your teammates when needed, debuff the opponent, CC the opponent, prevent opponents from casting against/attacking your teammates..... The list goes on and on. In my opinion, this is what a paladin (prot, ret, or holy) is there for in the arena environment. Support your teammates by setting up the kill or preventing a death. Change your perception about what we are supposed to be and you may find that you actually agree.

[Copain]

you sure?
i mean, have you ever been to arena?

That's an example of when it would be nice, not when it would be needed.

And before I hear "Oh Ret Pallies have the lowest representation" (It always seems to be the class who wants an ability, I don't follow the charts); that doesn't matter. As I've stated many times, even if Paladins were the lowest, but the top team was all Paladins, should they get a buff? No.

you are right, but only from pve perspective, that's why i can't agree with you completely.
we are pretty much lackluster in pvp, and you as a paladin surely tracked all the ret nerf from 3.0 to past days, you surely tracked all the blueposts containing shiz about giving us pvp tools after our so-called burst is dealt with.
and you know that it is the same lies they fed us again and again.
dont give me bullshit about arena is not about soloplay, just give me a clear explanation wth should i rely on my teammates in killing stuff? why should i be a fluffy kitten against casters?

You'll always have problems with a certain class and be strong against a certain class. They can't design abilities around having a counter for every class.

While I DO argue that Arena is a team game, I understand where you are coming from. The thing is they aren't horrible. Yes, you have a hard time with this or that, yes this is cheap and it'd be nice to have that. But there's always ways to come out on top, it's how you work with what you are given.

And to be honest, there might be some buffs you can get, but the problem is it's hard to just pass those out. A lot of the Ret Ideas (And it is Ret Paladins who use this stuff I've seen), often suggest things that would require nerfs in other fields, or things that would directly nerf other specs, in order to boost their own, which is obviously something they aren't going to do.

Also, the problem with giving a charge or interrupt out is the Paladin's core mechanics. If you could charge someone and burst them without having any ramp up time in PVP and lock down caster's from casting, who the hell would stand a chance against Paladins? They can't really give you skills without nerfing damage, which would nerf PVE, which they won't do since they double balance.

[Copain]

@copain, you still imply that our damage is *insane* and is described as *stun, judge, here and there, already dead* ??
paladin *burst* is considered high based on the fact of our long stun.
we have no burst abilities whatsoever.

Half the Paladin Abilities are defined as burst in my book. High damage abilities with no cast time and no previous Debuff/chance on hit/ect has to be used before they can deal the full damage. A Rogue's Sinister Strike is the example of a skill that has lower damage that you spam to deal big damage and it build's combo points for higher damaging skills.

Your burst isn't "insane," but imagine being able to land a hit every single cooldown, a charge would do that for you. now how would that be balanced?


IF you REALLY think your class can't play because of how it is, make a different character. There's obviously something ok with the Pally if you still play it and PVP with it.


Quick edit: I might toss in that not only do you have instant attacks with decent damage as a Ret, but you also have your defense abilities that can help you in team play, a LOTTTT more than a warlock's team play abilities could... Which is only health stones I think >_>?


Anyway, I gota go to work, later~

[Prentice]

@ prentice, if so, just achieve at least 2k and check out on the arena realities before applying your own suggestions. i am in no way trying to bash in , but you just cant speculate over things you dont know at all.

@copain, you still imply that our damage is *insane* and is described as *stun, judge, here and there, already dead* ??
paladin *burst* is considered high based on the fact of our long stun.
we have no burst abilities whatsoever.


f.e. yesterday, while doing daily bg IoC, i judgeed SoR onto an affliction wlock. it was a whopping of 2.5k critical. yeah, burst.

Did you play throughout TBC? Paladin success is cyclic. Early in the xpack, we excel in arenas. As the xpack progresses, we become less and less dominant. This isn't new. The good ret pvpers will adjust.

Look at the SK site and do a search for ret in the different brackets. In 2v2, there are rets over 2750 rating, In 3v3, there are rets over 2800 rating. In 5v5, there are rets over 2700 rating. Your perception is that we can't do it and thats completely untrue. My dislike of PvP makes me a bit more objective because I don't feel gimped like you do. It can be done, but you just have to work harder for it than you did in s5.

[Styria]

as seen from having the ret FAQ frontpaged, no sticky will stop the endless amount of people who decide to make a topic about something that should be covered in the sticky...

[Prentice]

Hollow..... can you possibly fail more at quoting?? I am not gonna sift through all that crap to try to figure out what your reply is.

[dyce09]

I've read all the posts up to here. I have to say, Hollow-Sorrow, you seem to want your cake and eat it too here. Your arguements come from just that, you want all your current unique abilities (like bubble) AND want others unique abilities (like charge).

Yes, I will say what Copain said, if you don't like how Paladin's are, change classes to something that you deem 'fair' or 'correct'.

Ret Paladin's do have burst damage because like what was mentioned before, you don't require pre-debuffs to be applied before getting max damage from an instant cast ability. I hope you're not mistaking abilities that hit for hit damage as 'burst' damage. Even a warlock who is destruction with those 10k+ Chaos Bolt crits have to apply a debuff first (castable spell) followed by the Chaos Bolt (castable spell) which then has a cooldown.

Paladin's can start with a ranged, instant 6 sec stunned. Use all their cooldowns (wings, talents, trinkets, Judegment, CS, DS and (instant)Exocism) before said target is out of stun? Is this fair? Some say no, some say yes.

But that is what is unique about Rets, they have that ability to do that. I've done 1v2 against better geared players in WG while mining at the beginning on Season 7 just because I have 2 ways to 'reset' the fight instantly. Bubble allows me to basically get a chance at a final finishing blow for 10secs OR heal myself to full. I also have Lay on Hands to completely reset the fight. So that 1v2 basically turns into a 1x3 vs 2.

Stop bitching and learn to play your class better. If you're only concerned about Arena, just like what Prentice said, there are Ret's very high rated in every bracket. So it can be done.

[Styria]

name of the debuff a destruction warlock has to apply before casting chaosbolt , please.

immolate. otherwise CB hits like a wet noodle. though that noodle is being swung by a baseball player.

[Ascal]

no.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=47270
a 10% is a real difference hur-hur.

Well, he didn't tell us what CB hits for with Immolate up. Maybe it hits like uncooked pasta.

[dyce09]

name of the debuff a destruction warlock has to apply before casting chaosbolt , please.

It's not that they HAVE to have it applied before casting Chaos Bolt, but in order for Chaos Bolt to do it's max damage, they need to have Immolate on the target first. Which is a 1.5sec cast spell.

You're welcome.

you cant reset the fight with loh, nor do you reset it with bubble.
because resetting is about healing to full amirite??

Yes you can. If I start fighting you with 100% life... then go down to 1% life, heal to 100% life (instantly) the fight is effectively reset (as far as health goes).
If you have a hard time understanding this, think of it as saying Paladin's have 3 health bars then. You have to kill them 3 times over just to win.

[Ascal]

It's not that they HAVE to have it applied before casting Chaos Bolt, but in order for Chaos Bolt to do it's max damage, they need to have Immolate on the target first. Which is a 1.5sec cast spell.

You're welcome.

still not an accurate comparison.

Rets have to chose between doing a third/quarter less damage(just guessing, don't have any numbers) or stacking a debuff only applied on autohit 5 times to do full damage.

Locks have the choice of either applying a debuff with a 1.5 second cast time or doing 10% less damage.

[Styria]

If I start fighting you with 100% life... then go down to 1% life, heal to 100% life (instantly) the fight is effectively reset (as far as health goes).

technically, the fight isnt reset unless you have 100% mana too. just sayin. having 100% HP and 2% mana isnt going to get you very far not matter what your class is.



edit: Quotefail = fixt :3