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[carlos5577]

whats the ability for SoC they mention nerfing?

[Cannstatt]

Actually considering it, since there are many good points raised. I do think the last thing Blizzard wants to do is take away Paladin tank's ability to tank in the first place, though. I really do hope so.

People still do seem to miss that Paladins are "easy" because they don't have the options other tanks do. And if they were given them people would complain about Paladins being able to do X and Y at the same time.

There's, like, no real way to win here. As far as NERFING goes, anyway.

Buffing other classes? I'm pretty sure everyone would be down with that.

While you're at it, please also tell them to give bears a way to interrupt casters (preferably even 1-2 sec silence) with an ability with less than a minute CD. Tanking multiple casters is a pain in the (admittedly fat and hairy) butt as a bear, e.g. the ramp in PoS *shudders*, especially when compared to the shield-bashing/spell-reflecting/heroic throwing/shockwaving/concussion blowing machine that is the warrior... Just change Bash from being a stun with 1 min CD to an interrupt with 10 or 15 sec CD and I'm happy.

[Typhron]

whats the ability for SoC they mention nerfing?

Some tanks pick of Seal of Cleavmand for it's splash damage. For tanks it turns Autoattack into a Swipe that does crap damage, but great threat. And only hit's four enemies. Aside, it's an easy way to get threat and hold it. if you're a tank, like Swipespam or Thunderclap.

While you're at it, please also tell them to give bears a way to interrupt casters (preferably even 1-2 sec silence) with an ability with less than a minute CD. Tanking multiple casters is a pain in the (admittedly fat and hairy) butt as a bear, e.g. the ramp in PoS *shudders*, especially when compared to the shield-bashing/spell-reflecting/heroic throwing/shockwaving/concussion blowing machine that is the warrior... Just change Bash from being a stun with 1 min CD to an interrupt with 10 or 15 sec CD and I'm happy.

Done and done. :V

[Thoridyss]

While you're at it, please also tell them to give bears a way to interrupt casters (preferably even 1-2 sec silence) with an ability with less than a minute CD. Tanking multiple casters is a pain in the (admittedly fat and hairy) butt as a bear, e.g. the ramp in PoS *shudders*, especially when compared to the shield-bashing/spell-reflecting/heroic throwing/shockwaving/concussion blowing machine that is the warrior... Just change Bash from being a stun with 1 min CD to an interrupt with 10 or 15 sec CD and I'm happy.

Honestly I think you guys should keep bash the way it is, and get a new ability that works like Shield bash. Also Think DKs should get a stun, that is not connected to the Ghoul, for tanking, nut I can also see why that would be really hard to implement without screwing PvP balance.

[Noonie]

I laugh at they won't push 3.3.3 due to faultiness in the patch, but am I correct, the last two patches have been miserable in terms of bugs.

[Thoridyss]

Some tanks pick of Seal of Cleavmand for it's splash damage. For tanks it turns Autoattack into a Swipe that does crap damage, but great threat. And only hit's four enemies. Aside, it's an easy way to get threat and hold it. if you're a tank, like Swipespam or Thunderclap.

Done and done. :V

Yeah but hopefully you see why that's broken with HoR and Consecrate, plus the fact you don't even have tp press a button to essential do what a Warriors have to tab Cleave to do. Like I've said the biggest down fall to teh Pally that will result in you guys getting nerfed (probably repeatedly) is how automatic the class is and how they can do so much with little to no interaction.

[DaLeetPawner]

Teh Gladiators WERE Good but they suddenly release nothing but flashbacks and stupid chat.

DLC and LFG Comics are still the best

[Terrax of the Wind]

That Battle of the Immortals preview in the MMO-Report looked appealing

Personally I'm hoping they can make all tanks as interactive and fun as the Warrior is to play. That's just my opinion at least

Me and you both, brotha.

[RuuddieBoy]

Yeah but hopefully you see why that's broken with HoR and Consecrate, plus the fact you don't even have tp press a button to essential do what a Warriors have to tab Cleave to do. Like I've said the biggest down fall to teh Pally that will result in you guys getting nerfed (probably repeatedly) is how automatic the class is and how they can do so much with little to no interaction.

I agree that the 96969 rotation is really basic and easy. The solution to this is not nerfing the Paladin's ability to AoE tank and then think the problem is solved. This way Paladins are still easy to tank with, but just less useful than they are now. The power of the Pala atm lies in it's ability to maintain AoE threat more easily, the power of the Warrior lies in their extra 'toolkit'.

So basically, imo if they want to nerf the Paladin's relative ease of maintaining AoE TPS, Blizzard should give them some utility spells in return. I would love to have something like Shield Bash to be able to pull ranged mobs to me, because Avenger's Shield is needed during the initial pull (sort of like Shockwave) and stunning+silencing the target with Hammer of Justice doesn't quite pull ranged mobs either.

[RuuddieBoy]

That Battle of the Immortals preview in the MMO-Report looked appealing

Me and you both, brotha.

Me three @ Personally I'm hoping they can make all tanks as interactive and fun as the Warrior is to play. That's just my opinion at least

[Typhron]

Yeah but hopefully you see why that's broken with HoR and Consecrate, plus the fact you don't even have tp press a button to essential do what a Warriors have to tab Cleave to do. Like I've said the biggest down fall to teh Pally that will result in you guys getting nerfed (probably repeatedly) is how automatic the class is and how they can do so much with little to no interaction.

Most Paladin abilities are designed that way, unfortunately. And I don't thin Blizzard wants the 51 point talent in the Protection tree to be a X Strike Ability with no bells or whistles, like Crusader Strike is. Damage is one thing, but tanking utility is another.

But that's something you'll never hear people admit. An ability works too well and they DON'T WANT TO HURT IT.

Addendum:

you don't have to be compensated for being nerfed. and no one said you were LOSING your ability to aoe tank. having such high aoe threat that you pull of any other tank you run with in a raid and let the other guy effectively take a nap while you hold the mobs however, is rediculous. it would be brought IN LINE with other tanks.

you aren't three either. you don't needa be given a new sippie cup to focus on after mommy takes your binkie away.

So, there you go. The wisdom of WoW's forums.

This being the thread in question, to the EU'ers I promised.

[DrgnDancer]

While you're at it, please also tell them to give bears a way to interrupt casters (preferably even 1-2 sec silence) with an ability with less than a minute CD. Tanking multiple casters is a pain in the (admittedly fat and hairy) butt as a bear, e.g. the ramp in PoS *shudders*, especially when compared to the shield-bashing/spell-reflecting/heroic throwing/shockwaving/concussion blowing machine that is the warrior... Just change Bash from being a stun with 1 min CD to an interrupt with 10 or 15 sec CD and I'm happy.

Oh please this. This is the one thing I hate about tanking on my Druid. Even on "easy" H-OK and those damned Spellflingers. I interrupt the first one of those empowered Shadow Bolts that do 75% of base health as damage, and just pray that one of the DPS has the brains to focus on them for the next minute until my interrupt is up. Even better, since Bash is a stun, not a silence, they just stand in the middle of room aggroing pats.

Those are least trivial to take down though, and can often be LOSed. The casters in H-PoS and H-HoR are the real problems. My kingdom for an interrupt on a reasonable cooldown.

[Typhron]

Oh please this. This is the one thing I hate about tanking on my Druid. Even on "easy" H-OK and those damned Spellflingers. I interrupt the first one of those empowered Shadow Bolts that do 75% of base health as damage, and just pray that one of the DPS has the brains to focus on them for the next minute until my interrupt is up. Even better, since Bash is as stun, not a silence, they just stand in the middle of room aggroing pats.

Those are least trivial to take down though, and can often be LOSed. The casters in H-PoS and H-HoR are the real problems. My kingdom for an interrupt on a reasonable cooldown.

I did it, but I didn't post it in the main thread (It would've been lost REAL FAST). I do wonder if anyone other than a Death Knight will reply, though.

[Asur]

I would but I highly Disagree with you. I've literally had mobs torn off me by Pally tanks in AoE Packs, Yeah i manage to keep like two But the Pally tears the rest off of me without even trying. Which is fine really but having an 80 Prot Pally as well, the class is to easy, Paladins don't take nearly the effort other tank classes take, and are so automatic, personally I find them a bore. Honestly everything they want to nerf needs to be nerfed. paladins need to be more than a "barely pay attention and still tank like a pro" class. as I said this is again my opinion (from experience.) Paladin is the Lazy man's Tank.

So swipe spamming is hard?

[wordtipping]

I think its pretty obvious they need to fix the interaction between SoCommand and Hammer of Reckoning. I doubt this was intended. Without this mechanic a Paladin does need to tab target packs.

I do find it slightly hilarious that the core complaint is that Paladin's actually work. We are a tank class that actually has a core rotation, like a dps class. We don't have to wrestle with our class to get it to work. But, I think a lot of non-paladins think our tanking ability beings and ends with the 6969 and it doesn't. The skill comes into play in utilizing our small but potential tookit. Finding the right time to use a hand spell or divine sacrifice is a must.

But, I do like the fact that paladins work. That I can spare time to look at the raid, worry about positioning, shout commands over vent, etc. I think warriors would benefit a lot by having their core mechanics revamped a bit, to me they feel broken. I am envious of a warriors incredibly deep toolbox however...and critical block.

[Thoridyss]

I think its pretty obvious they need to fix the interaction between SoCommand and Hammer of Reckoning. I doubt this was intended. Without this mechanic a Paladin does need to tab target packs.

I do find it slightly hilarious that the core complaint is that Paladin's actually work. We are a tank class that actually has a core rotation, like a dps class. We don't have to wrestle with our class to get it to work. But, I think a lot of non-paladins think our tanking ability beings and ends with the 6969 and it doesn't. The skill comes into play in utilizing our small but potential tookit. Finding the right time to use a hand spell or divine sacrifice is a must.

But, I do like the fact that paladins work. That I can spare time to look at the raid, worry about positioning, shout commands over vent, etc. I think warriors would benefit a lot by having their core mechanics revamped a bit, to me they feel broken. I am envious of a warriors incredibly deep toolbox however...and critical block.

I feel the exact opposite, I hate that Pallies have a stuck rotation it feels too easy to me like I don't have to try (I have an 80 Prot pally). Being able to do everything you posted in your last paragraph plus always having something that has to be done, makes tanking feel more rewarding and satisfying to me. Paladin's don't fill me with that same reward. I feel like, I chose to put the game on easy (the game is not hard but you know what I mean.) rather than try to actually force myself to be more competent. If they changed the Warrior to be more like the pally I for one would quit tanking. If I wanted easy threat, automatic debuffs and an automatic class i would play my Paladin and not complain about how mind numbingly easy a prot pally is compared to every other tank.

Now I'm not saying Pallies are not good at tanking, I'm saying they are too automatic and too easy, and generate to much threat that it becomes a Oh wow my fav show is on, let me watch that while I raid, barely pay attention and still look like a pro. (If other people can't do this playing a Prot Pally, I may have just spent to many years playing on two screens multi-tasking.) Where as with a Warrior, DK,and Druid I have to actually pay attention to teh game fully.

[mordras]

Some tanks pick of Seal of Cleavmand for it's splash damage. For tanks it turns Autoattack into a Swipe that does crap damage, but great threat. And only hit's four enemies. Aside, it's an easy way to get threat and hold it. if you're a tank, like Swipespam or Thunderclap.

There are actually two components to this seal. It does X holy damage to your target and will "cleave" that Holy damage to 2 other targets. Auto Attack and Shield of Righteousness both will do the cleave portion. Hammer of the Righteous does not do the cleave however it does apply the Holy damage to each of the targets that the hammer hits. Also adding Reckoning to your build will increase your auto attack by a large amount and thus increasing the effectiveness of this seal quite a bit.

It may seem like "crap damage" on the surface but it quickly adds up. When I first read about this dramatically increasing DPS for a tank I was skeptical until I tried it. On trash my DPS went from around on average 2200 DPS to 3200 DPS.

While this is nice it really is out of control. When 3 of the 5 main abilities in the tanking rotation are doing AoE damage and two of those are on a 6 second cooldown something is wrong. Personally I think Blizzard should just make Seal of Command only usable when wielding a 2HD weapon. They might even need to tone down the damage HotR is doing as well because even before I used SoC I felt maintaining threat on trash was trivial.

[Daos]

While this is nice it really is out of control. When 3 of the 5 main abilities in the tanking rotation are doing AoE damage and two of those are on a 6 second cooldown something is wrong. Personally I think Blizzard should just make Seal of Command only usable when wielding a 2HD weapon. They might even need to tone down the damage HotR is doing as well because even before I used SoC I felt maintaining threat on trash was trivial.

I agree that they should probably just remove SoC from our toolkit, since it just makes AoE tanking entirely too simple. I'm nervous about them nerfing HotR, however, since unless they did it in a rather elegant fashion that only affected the AoE portion of the ability, that could really hurt our single-target threat (given that in 2xT10 and in fairly good gear, HotR hits harder than anything else we have by a substantial amount), and I'm not convinced that's actually necessary. It could just be my experience, but I haven't noticed that paladins have any great lead on the other tanks in terms of sustained single-target TPS.

[lilbandit]

So swipe spamming is hard?

dunno about now, but certainly when I was tanking ulduar trash on my druid pre-TOC, keeping AoE agro was pretty hard. swipe was doing on average 3-4k TPS if lucky, whereas AoE was doing 10-12k TPS. I'm sure it's even worse now.

Oh, and it's just incredibly boring.

bottom line, take away HoR hitting like a friggin truck and doing stupidly high thread on 4 targets at once, and buff up consecrate - give it a SNAP agro with a DoT component like it has now. perhaps something like the way wild growth works...?

[wordtipping]

I feel the exact opposite, I hate that Pallies have a stuck rotation it feels too easy to me like I don't have to try (I have an 80 Prot pally).

I don't view that as skill or fun. I don't like being glued to the screen waiting for reactive abilities or the next step in a FCFS rotation. I don't want my core function to be the difficult part of the game. I would rather the difficult part to be reacting to the fight itself, knowing when to use key abilities through out a fight and raid communication. I want to see the fight, not pay attention to my hot-bar.

To me, Paladins and DK work the best as tanks. They have a rhythm. You can get into the tanking zen and focus on the fight. It reminds me of raiding as a rogue. Tanking as a warrior reminds me more of being a healer and why I hated it.