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  1. #121

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    im so curious what the shamans restorations tree mastery will be.
    hard to cover pve and pvp ^^

  2. #122

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayse
    I have solid numbers and theorycrafting backing up my QQ. The theorycraft goes like this: Game design is hard. Percentage of times in the history of MMOs and their MUD predecessors that any developer has ever made a giant change to class mechanics and balance and pulled it off without screwing 1 or more classes completely and taking ages to fix them: 0%. Prediction for Cata: one or more classes will get screwed.
    a) I never said that all classes would come out of it well. I said that there is no evidence to suggest that specifically "Class X" will get a nerf. And as it stands, classes such s Boomkins are already sub-par in terms of balance so the argument that 'a class will come off badly' holds absolutely no water as not all classes are fine as it stands- It's a fact that the ratio of classes which are working as intended to those that are not will either stay the same, increase or decrease- 1 of those is positive, 1 is negligible and as such would cause no QQ either way (so you could say that that's also positive if the stat and talent systems are simplified) and 1 is negative; 2 (essentially) positive outcomes to 1 negative one immediately suggests that this is likely to be a good change rather than a bad one.

    b) That's not theorycrafting. That's more QQ, conjecture and an irrelevant (not to mention untrue) argument from experience with the word 'theorycrafting' behind it to convince stupid people that it actually is theorycrafting. Don't attempt to disguise one thing as another when it blatantly isn't. That's not an argument, it's a lie. Essentially, you've said that '1 or more classes will get screwed' without saying that 'one or more classes could be improved'- You've essentially provided a one-sided argument with nothing to back it up.

    You, sir, are the Fox news of MMO Champion.


    Edit


    I should also point out that changes which tend to mess class balance up and make balancing take ages to carry out are those which tend to increase the complexity of the systems used; This is all about reducing complexity and should, in theory, actually make class balance much, much easier.

  3. #123

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Mastery System Preview
    Originally Posted by Eyonix (Blue Tracker)

    This way, if you choose a talent like Elusiveness (which reduces your chance to be detected while stealthed)

    this again shows, that blizz has no clue what they are doing..

    Elusiveness (Rank 2)
    Reduces the cooldown of your Vanish and Blind abilities by 60 sec and your Cloak of Shadows ability by 30 sec.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    No, Vanish isn’t working properly and breaks when you breathe on the rogue funny.

  4. #124

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by sanchez2673
    this again shows, that blizz has no clue what they are doing..

    Elusiveness (Rank 2)
    Instant
    Reduces the cooldown of your Vanish and Blind abilities by 60 sec and your Cloak of Shadows ability by 30 sec.
    Or that the dev who wrote the update doesn't play a rogue and the devs who do will work on rogues. All this shows is that somebody made a slight mistake which would be fairly easy to do with the name of the talent suggesting that effect and all. Besides, seeing as the rogue trees do contain talents that have that particular effect, it's hardly a massive cock-up.

  5. #125
    Scarab Lord TylerN's Avatar
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    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Yes, exactly what I was hoping for.
    This will hopefull kill cookie cutter builds, because now there are so many other diffrent ways of choosing talents and get diffrent ammounts of mastery from each tree.

    Nothing fun about most having the exact same builds.

    this again shows, that blizz has no clue what they are doing..

    Elusiveness (Rank 2)
    Instant
    Reduces the cooldown of your Vanish and Blind abilities by 60 sec and your Cloak of Shadows ability by 30 sec.
    I bet the guy is a night elf and confused a rogue talent with the night elf racial, which does infact do what he wrote.

  6. #126

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    There won't be tanking mastery bonuses for DK or Druids. I'd like to see what the have in store for that...

  7. #127
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by tobokke
    There won't be tanking mastery bonuses for DK or Druids. I'd like to see what the have in store for that...
    Masteries will also change depending on stance/bear form/presence/righteous fury, and these abilities will put you at defense cap so you do not need to be tank spec to tank dungeons and heroics, raids will still require a fully tank specced tank.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  8. #128

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by sanchez2673
    Mastery System Preview
    Originally Posted by Eyonix (Blue Tracker)

    This way, if you choose a talent like Elusiveness (which reduces your chance to be detected while stealthed)

    this again shows, that blizz has no clue what they are doing..

    Elusiveness (Rank 2)
    Reduces the cooldown of your Vanish and Blind abilities by 60 sec and your Cloak of Shadows ability by 30 sec.
    So you are telling me that there is no rogue ability that reduces the chance to be detected while stealthed <Master of Deception...first tier of Subtlety Tree>? So he said the wrong ability, it doesn't mean Bliz has no clue what they are doing. Yes there is a talent that you can spec into which does exactly what he was quoted as saying, he just used the wrong name. Just because he made a small mistake doesn't mean Blizzard as a whole doesn't have any idea what they are doing. I'm certain if I went over everything you've ever written I would find a mistake or two, would that then imply that everyone that you are associated with is a moron because you said something that was not correct?

  9. #129

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Well, I feel kinda bad for posting in ignorance, but I can't see the official forums from work (but I can read and post on mmo-champion all day. Yay?). I'm with several others here, on being a bit concerned about Hybrids. I'll use my Rogue and my Druid (since I know their mechanics better than any other classes) as examples.

    For my Rogue, I currently put points in Combat and Assassination. Likely I will continue to do so. First level mastery in both is likely to be +DPS, so no loss by putting points in both. Second level is likely to be +haste for Assassination, and +ArP for Combat, both will be helpful, so sure no problem. Third level for Assassination seems likely to be poison related, and I don't know what Combat will be. Since poisons are good for Combat, I'll make a reasonable guess that the Assassination third tier mastery will be helpful for Combat Rogues. All is well, there is no reason to assume that I'll be penalized much for a multi-tree spec.

    For my Druid (I'll use my tank spec, since it seems like the more likely problem), I currently spend most of my "off" points in the Resto tree. There are several useful talents for bear tanks in the Resto tree, so this makes sense. So... um.. I get + healing Masteries? For my tank? That can't heal in bear form, even if I could find a GCD or two to throw a heal on someone? I will grant you that I'm not looking at the new talent trees. Maybe they'll remove all the yummy things like Master Shape Shifter out of Resto, but I can't see any possible way that any Mastery from Balance or Resto would ever be useful to a Feral. Ferals don't heal (and they can't without form shifts, so it can't even be a "utility" function), and don't use spell damage (and they can't without shifting so it can't even be a "utility" thing). The second tier bonus (probably +crit in both cases) from the other trees might be useful, but I can't see any way that the first and third tier bonuses would be.

    Edit to add: I'm not QQing here. Just curious about how they plan to handle this. I'm sure they've thought of it, but I see no indication of what they expect to do. I mean a 76 point Feral only spec will look mighty silly, and won't exactly make "more interesting choices".

  10. #130
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by hoot80
    So you are telling me that there is no rogue ability that reduces the chance to be detected while stealthed <Master of Deception...first tier of Subtlety Tree>? So he said the wrong ability, it doesn't mean Bliz has no clue what they are doing. Yes there is a talent that you can spec into which does exactly what he was quoted as saying, he just used the wrong name. Just because he made a small mistake doesn't mean Blizzard as a whole doesn't have any idea what they are doing. I'm certain if I went over everything you've ever written I would find a mistake or two, would that then imply that everyone that you are associated with is a moron because you said something that was not correct?
    There is a blue post that mentioned that almost all the current first 2 tiers of talents for Subtlety may all become class passives
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  11. #131

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    I think the mastery system has a lot of potential. Once implemented the game designers will have easier nobs to turn to increase damage, healing, tanking etc. to balance the game easier. This will give them a universal nob for specs in a class.

    Removing many of the passive talents and rolling their effects into the mastery will also hopefully bring in a few more talents and play styles. I use to play a warrior. I think it would be nice to have a few ways to go down the fury or arms tree and reach about the same amount of while having a few mechanics you can change up.

    As for hybrids, I think they may potentially lose out a bit on being able to do that second job, however I do not see why this is such a big deal. You still will be able to do some healing.

    Overall, this should hopefully give bliz another nob to turn for balancing the game quickly. They can look at a spec that is doing too much damage, and turn the mastery down a bit. Then they can look into the tree itself and nerf/buff the individual ability that is doing too much damage.

    Overall, for the player, I think the biggest change will be having more buttons to potentially press, or being able to vary which buttons you press.

  12. #132

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Shigenari
    a) I never said that all classes would come out of it well. I said that there is no evidence to suggest that specifically "Class X" will get a nerf. And as it stands, classes such s Boomkins are already sub-par in terms of balance so the argument that 'a class will come off badly' holds absolutely no water as not all classes are fine as it stands- It's a fact that the ratio of classes which are working as intended to those that are not will either stay the same, increase or decrease- 1 of those is positive, 1 is negligible and as such would cause no QQ either way (so you could say that that's also positive if the stat and talent systems are simplified) and 1 is negative; 2 (essentially) positive outcomes to 1 negative one immediately suggests that this is likely to be a good change rather than a bad one.
    I think you're misunderstanding the nature of QQ. You're making the assumption that people are happy with the status quo, which, as far as the current attitude of humanity is concerned, is not the case.
    In short: the '1 is negligible' will cause QQ because it is negligible. QQ does not care about logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shigenari
    b) That's not theorycrafting. That's more QQ, conjecture and an irrelevant (not to mention untrue) argument from experience with the word 'theorycrafting' behind it to convince stupid people that it actually is theorycrafting. Don't attempt to disguise one thing as another when it blatantly isn't. That's not an argument, it's a lie. Essentially, you've said that '1 or more classes will get screwed' without saying that 'one or more classes could be improved'- You've essentially provided a one-sided argument with nothing to back it up.

    You, sir, are the Fox news of MMO Champion.
    While it may be a Fox News style comment the version of any class balancing change that hits live servers is very likely to have a large bug in it somewhere for the following reasons:
    1. The people making the change are human beings, and are not perfect.
    2. The change was not tested by an infinite number of testers.
    3. In the case of WoW there will be roughly 1.1 million or more people (1/10th of the game population) trying to break the change when it's applied.
    It's extremely likely that there will be a large imbalance somewhere, and it will take a long time to get it right no matter how long blizzard takes to test it or how many testers they have. This is the nature of video games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shigenari
    Edit

    I should also point out that changes which tend to mess class balance up and make balancing take ages to carry out are those which tend to increase the complexity of the systems used; This is all about reducing complexity and should, in theory, actually make class balance much, much easier.
    In theory, yes, but the mastery system is more than likely going to make things more complex because people can spec into multiple talent trees for multiple bonuses.

    Doomhammer EU

  13. #133

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground
    There is a blue post that mentioned that almost all the current first 2 tiers of talents for Subtlety may all become class passives
    That's fine, but the guy was just trying to point out an example of a talent that felt a little useless that with the new mastery system wouldn't feel quite so useless since you would see some type of stat increase just by putting points in the talent. No need to nitpick and call Bliz stupid because he stated the wrong name of the ability for his example.

  14. #134

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    look...no. (I'm not going to bother reading the 135 comments above me, but I'm responding to the blizzard logic that justifies the awesomeness of masteries - even though I don't necessarily disagree with them as a game mechanic). If you're giving x quantifiable bonus for having y amount of points spent in one specific tree, you're still making taking talents mandatory. If I take *be a noob* (<--talent name) which doesn't increase my dps and is completely uninteresting in my main dps tree, but it gives me a net bonus to my mastery, which is then higher than what I would get from putting a spread talent in a second tree, that point becomes mandatory. and if it's not higher, the spread talent becomes mandatory. "bis" specs will still exist. the only difference is that the justifications will become a little more esoteric. It will read like this "taking the base dps talents in the assassination tree (for example) are necessary to boost dps, but your overall dps increase from going into combat are best used here here and here. Now, for your last 2 points, you can either go with these minor dps increases in combat, or you can sink them into assassination, and get a greater and more relevant mastery bonus from assass. 1 is better or 2 is better. period." It's still going to be cut and dry - it's just going to have to take mastery into account.

    This nonsense of "oh no, now it's more interesting" is complete SH*T - from a min/maxxer's perspective. The conversation doesn't change, you're just making it more gimmicky.

  15. #135

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    My guess is for these hybrids a major reshuffling would occur.

    Any talents that show up low in a resto tree right now that seem like they would be good for a tank would be moved to the caster tree.

    low level caster mastery could be simple + damage buff that a tank would benefit from

    Just throwing out some ideas on how they can deal with it

    Quote Originally Posted by DrgnDancer
    Well, I feel kinda bad for posting in ignorance, but I can't see the official forums from work (but I can read and post on mmo-champion all day. Yay?). I'm with several others here, on being a bit concerned about Hybrids. I'll use my Rogue and my Druid (since I know their mechanics better than any other classes) as examples.

    For my Rogue, I currently put points in Combat and Assassination. Likely I will continue to do so. First level mastery in both is likely to be +DPS, so no loss by putting points in both. Second level is likely to be +haste for Assassination, and +ArP for Combat, both will be helpful, so sure no problem. Third level for Assassination seems likely to be poison related, and I don't know what Combat will be. Since poisons are good for Combat, I'll make a reasonable guess that the Assassination third tier mastery will be helpful for Combat Rogues. All is well, there is no reason to assume that I'll be penalized much for a multi-tree spec.

    For my Druid (I'll use my tank spec, since it seems like the more likely problem), I currently spend most of my "off" points in the Resto tree. There are several useful talents for bear tanks in the Resto tree, so this makes sense. So... um.. I get + healing Masteries? For my tank? That can't heal in bear form, even if I could find a GCD or two to throw a heal on someone? I will grant you that I'm not looking at the new talent trees. Maybe they'll remove all the yummy things like Master Shape Shifter out of Resto, but I can't see any possible way that any Mastery from Balance or Resto would ever be useful to a Feral. Ferals don't heal (and they can't without form shifts, so it can't even be a "utility" function), and don't use spell damage (and they can't without shifting so it can't even be a "utility" thing). The second tier bonus (probably +crit in both cases) from the other trees might be useful, but I can't see any way that the first and third tier bonuses would be.

    Edit to add: I'm not QQing here. Just curious about how they plan to handle this. I'm sure they've thought of it, but I see no indication of what they expect to do. I mean a 76 point Feral only spec will look mighty silly, and won't exactly make "more interesting choices".

  16. #136

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    I hope they don't screw mages up with this change. Blizzard has always split the mage trees between damage types. If fire mastery increases fire damage only, arcane mastery increases arcane damage only and frost mastery increases frost damage only, we'll just end up putting 76 points in one tree.

  17. #137

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by alt
    I hope they don't screw mages up with this change. Blizzard has always split the mage trees between damage types. If fire mastery increases fire damage only, arcane mastery increases arcane damage only and frost mastery increases frost damage only, we'll just end up putting 76 points in one tree.
    I don't think you're going to get more mastery points by bloating any one tree.

  18. #138

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Lots of people still having a hard time grasping the concepts, especially after questions have already been answered.

    1. It was said that there will be a sort of "diminishing returns" on masteries, to prevent bloating one tree.

    2. Hybrid classes will likely get shuffled a little bit to fix the issue with incompatible talents/masteries (i.e., bears getting healing bonuses for the resto talents that are "mandatory")

    3. Yes, he made a mistake. Elusiveness the talent does not increase stealth level, at least not in live. Get over it. If he loses credibility for making a mistake, perhaps everyone here should lose credibility for spelling/grammar errors?

    4. The mastery bonus from wearing the correct armor class won't make/break the class. It will likely just make the decision to wear a lower level of gear less trivial.

    To me it seems like the masteries will boost damage A LOT. I saw +72% damage on the combat/retribution trees. I wonder what that will translate to after the "bloat" talents are removed.

  19. #139

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    The Mastery system looks really interesting. Can't wait to try it out.

  20. #140

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Since the intent is to remove talents such as Piecing Ice, my question is:

    Are the talent tree's going to be thinner, or will they be replacing the removed talents with "fun or utility-oriented " talents?

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