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  1. #121

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by sanchez2673
    Mastery System Preview
    Originally Posted by Eyonix (Blue Tracker)

    This way, if you choose a talent like Elusiveness (which reduces your chance to be detected while stealthed)

    this again shows, that blizz has no clue what they are doing..

    Elusiveness (Rank 2)
    Reduces the cooldown of your Vanish and Blind abilities by 60 sec and your Cloak of Shadows ability by 30 sec.
    So you are telling me that there is no rogue ability that reduces the chance to be detected while stealthed <Master of Deception...first tier of Subtlety Tree>? So he said the wrong ability, it doesn't mean Bliz has no clue what they are doing. Yes there is a talent that you can spec into which does exactly what he was quoted as saying, he just used the wrong name. Just because he made a small mistake doesn't mean Blizzard as a whole doesn't have any idea what they are doing. I'm certain if I went over everything you've ever written I would find a mistake or two, would that then imply that everyone that you are associated with is a moron because you said something that was not correct?

  2. #122

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Well, I feel kinda bad for posting in ignorance, but I can't see the official forums from work (but I can read and post on mmo-champion all day. Yay?). I'm with several others here, on being a bit concerned about Hybrids. I'll use my Rogue and my Druid (since I know their mechanics better than any other classes) as examples.

    For my Rogue, I currently put points in Combat and Assassination. Likely I will continue to do so. First level mastery in both is likely to be +DPS, so no loss by putting points in both. Second level is likely to be +haste for Assassination, and +ArP for Combat, both will be helpful, so sure no problem. Third level for Assassination seems likely to be poison related, and I don't know what Combat will be. Since poisons are good for Combat, I'll make a reasonable guess that the Assassination third tier mastery will be helpful for Combat Rogues. All is well, there is no reason to assume that I'll be penalized much for a multi-tree spec.

    For my Druid (I'll use my tank spec, since it seems like the more likely problem), I currently spend most of my "off" points in the Resto tree. There are several useful talents for bear tanks in the Resto tree, so this makes sense. So... um.. I get + healing Masteries? For my tank? That can't heal in bear form, even if I could find a GCD or two to throw a heal on someone? I will grant you that I'm not looking at the new talent trees. Maybe they'll remove all the yummy things like Master Shape Shifter out of Resto, but I can't see any possible way that any Mastery from Balance or Resto would ever be useful to a Feral. Ferals don't heal (and they can't without form shifts, so it can't even be a "utility" function), and don't use spell damage (and they can't without shifting so it can't even be a "utility" thing). The second tier bonus (probably +crit in both cases) from the other trees might be useful, but I can't see any way that the first and third tier bonuses would be.

    Edit to add: I'm not QQing here. Just curious about how they plan to handle this. I'm sure they've thought of it, but I see no indication of what they expect to do. I mean a 76 point Feral only spec will look mighty silly, and won't exactly make "more interesting choices".

  3. #123

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by hoot80
    So you are telling me that there is no rogue ability that reduces the chance to be detected while stealthed <Master of Deception...first tier of Subtlety Tree>? So he said the wrong ability, it doesn't mean Bliz has no clue what they are doing. Yes there is a talent that you can spec into which does exactly what he was quoted as saying, he just used the wrong name. Just because he made a small mistake doesn't mean Blizzard as a whole doesn't have any idea what they are doing. I'm certain if I went over everything you've ever written I would find a mistake or two, would that then imply that everyone that you are associated with is a moron because you said something that was not correct?
    There is a blue post that mentioned that almost all the current first 2 tiers of talents for Subtlety may all become class passives
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  4. #124

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    I think the mastery system has a lot of potential. Once implemented the game designers will have easier nobs to turn to increase damage, healing, tanking etc. to balance the game easier. This will give them a universal nob for specs in a class.

    Removing many of the passive talents and rolling their effects into the mastery will also hopefully bring in a few more talents and play styles. I use to play a warrior. I think it would be nice to have a few ways to go down the fury or arms tree and reach about the same amount of while having a few mechanics you can change up.

    As for hybrids, I think they may potentially lose out a bit on being able to do that second job, however I do not see why this is such a big deal. You still will be able to do some healing.

    Overall, this should hopefully give bliz another nob to turn for balancing the game quickly. They can look at a spec that is doing too much damage, and turn the mastery down a bit. Then they can look into the tree itself and nerf/buff the individual ability that is doing too much damage.

    Overall, for the player, I think the biggest change will be having more buttons to potentially press, or being able to vary which buttons you press.

  5. #125

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground
    There is a blue post that mentioned that almost all the current first 2 tiers of talents for Subtlety may all become class passives
    That's fine, but the guy was just trying to point out an example of a talent that felt a little useless that with the new mastery system wouldn't feel quite so useless since you would see some type of stat increase just by putting points in the talent. No need to nitpick and call Bliz stupid because he stated the wrong name of the ability for his example.

  6. #126

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    look...no. (I'm not going to bother reading the 135 comments above me, but I'm responding to the blizzard logic that justifies the awesomeness of masteries - even though I don't necessarily disagree with them as a game mechanic). If you're giving x quantifiable bonus for having y amount of points spent in one specific tree, you're still making taking talents mandatory. If I take *be a noob* (<--talent name) which doesn't increase my dps and is completely uninteresting in my main dps tree, but it gives me a net bonus to my mastery, which is then higher than what I would get from putting a spread talent in a second tree, that point becomes mandatory. and if it's not higher, the spread talent becomes mandatory. "bis" specs will still exist. the only difference is that the justifications will become a little more esoteric. It will read like this "taking the base dps talents in the assassination tree (for example) are necessary to boost dps, but your overall dps increase from going into combat are best used here here and here. Now, for your last 2 points, you can either go with these minor dps increases in combat, or you can sink them into assassination, and get a greater and more relevant mastery bonus from assass. 1 is better or 2 is better. period." It's still going to be cut and dry - it's just going to have to take mastery into account.

    This nonsense of "oh no, now it's more interesting" is complete SH*T - from a min/maxxer's perspective. The conversation doesn't change, you're just making it more gimmicky.

  7. #127

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    My guess is for these hybrids a major reshuffling would occur.

    Any talents that show up low in a resto tree right now that seem like they would be good for a tank would be moved to the caster tree.

    low level caster mastery could be simple + damage buff that a tank would benefit from

    Just throwing out some ideas on how they can deal with it

    Quote Originally Posted by DrgnDancer
    Well, I feel kinda bad for posting in ignorance, but I can't see the official forums from work (but I can read and post on mmo-champion all day. Yay?). I'm with several others here, on being a bit concerned about Hybrids. I'll use my Rogue and my Druid (since I know their mechanics better than any other classes) as examples.

    For my Rogue, I currently put points in Combat and Assassination. Likely I will continue to do so. First level mastery in both is likely to be +DPS, so no loss by putting points in both. Second level is likely to be +haste for Assassination, and +ArP for Combat, both will be helpful, so sure no problem. Third level for Assassination seems likely to be poison related, and I don't know what Combat will be. Since poisons are good for Combat, I'll make a reasonable guess that the Assassination third tier mastery will be helpful for Combat Rogues. All is well, there is no reason to assume that I'll be penalized much for a multi-tree spec.

    For my Druid (I'll use my tank spec, since it seems like the more likely problem), I currently spend most of my "off" points in the Resto tree. There are several useful talents for bear tanks in the Resto tree, so this makes sense. So... um.. I get + healing Masteries? For my tank? That can't heal in bear form, even if I could find a GCD or two to throw a heal on someone? I will grant you that I'm not looking at the new talent trees. Maybe they'll remove all the yummy things like Master Shape Shifter out of Resto, but I can't see any possible way that any Mastery from Balance or Resto would ever be useful to a Feral. Ferals don't heal (and they can't without form shifts, so it can't even be a "utility" function), and don't use spell damage (and they can't without shifting so it can't even be a "utility" thing). The second tier bonus (probably +crit in both cases) from the other trees might be useful, but I can't see any way that the first and third tier bonuses would be.

    Edit to add: I'm not QQing here. Just curious about how they plan to handle this. I'm sure they've thought of it, but I see no indication of what they expect to do. I mean a 76 point Feral only spec will look mighty silly, and won't exactly make "more interesting choices".

  8. #128

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    I hope they don't screw mages up with this change. Blizzard has always split the mage trees between damage types. If fire mastery increases fire damage only, arcane mastery increases arcane damage only and frost mastery increases frost damage only, we'll just end up putting 76 points in one tree.

  9. #129

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by alt
    I hope they don't screw mages up with this change. Blizzard has always split the mage trees between damage types. If fire mastery increases fire damage only, arcane mastery increases arcane damage only and frost mastery increases frost damage only, we'll just end up putting 76 points in one tree.
    I don't think you're going to get more mastery points by bloating any one tree.

  10. #130

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Lots of people still having a hard time grasping the concepts, especially after questions have already been answered.

    1. It was said that there will be a sort of "diminishing returns" on masteries, to prevent bloating one tree.

    2. Hybrid classes will likely get shuffled a little bit to fix the issue with incompatible talents/masteries (i.e., bears getting healing bonuses for the resto talents that are "mandatory")

    3. Yes, he made a mistake. Elusiveness the talent does not increase stealth level, at least not in live. Get over it. If he loses credibility for making a mistake, perhaps everyone here should lose credibility for spelling/grammar errors?

    4. The mastery bonus from wearing the correct armor class won't make/break the class. It will likely just make the decision to wear a lower level of gear less trivial.

    To me it seems like the masteries will boost damage A LOT. I saw +72% damage on the combat/retribution trees. I wonder what that will translate to after the "bloat" talents are removed.

  11. #131
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    Re: Mastery System Preview

    The Mastery system looks really interesting. Can't wait to try it out.
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  12. #132
    Deleted

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Since the intent is to remove talents such as Piecing Ice, my question is:

    Are the talent tree's going to be thinner, or will they be replacing the removed talents with "fun or utility-oriented " talents?

  13. #133
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    Re: Mastery System Preview

    After reading the post a few times, I gathered that you get all 3 bonuses even with 1 point in, but at different scaling. Example:
    (these are rough and made up but its just to get the point across)

    26/50 Holy Priest
    Holy Tree:
    Healing - Increases your healing by 53%
    Meditation - Increases your mana regen from Spirit in combat by 53%
    Radiance - Adds a Hot Component that heals 53% of the main heal over time.

    Discipline Tree:
    Healing - Increases your healing by 18%
    Meditation - Increases your mana regen from Spirit in combat by 18%
    Absorption - Increases dmg absorbed by PW:S by 18%

    VS.

    50/26 Disc Priests
    Holy Tree:
    Healing: 18% Increase
    Meditation: 18% mana regen increases from Spirit
    Radiance: 18% of the Heal will be done as a HoT

    Discipline Tree:
    Healing: 53% Increase
    Meditation: 53% Increase
    Absorption: 53% more dmg absorbed by PW:S

    Now the numbers will scale differently and it won't be so linear, so for example 26 points will only equate to 15% bonus, or something. This way, subspecing doesn't harm you very much versus going full 76 points into a tree. ya 76% healing increase is nice, but 65% increases plus a 15% radiance might turn out better healing in end game. Same goes for the Mediatation mastery. I'll re-read the post but from the way it was worded, this is how I see it working. Also, they don't have to be necessarily the same scaling. For example you could probably get 22% healing if you put 26 points into Holy and only 13% healing by putting points into Disc, or vice versa. It will probably be scaled based on the way the spec works and the talents you get in the tree.

    So I don't think going full 76 points into a tree would be as beneficial as going say 51/25 or something.

  14. #134

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasyn
    2. Hybrid classes will likely get shuffled a little bit to fix the issue with incompatible talents/masteries (i.e., bears getting healing bonuses for the resto talents that are "mandatory")
    That isn't really what concerns me. Move the talents out of Resto to... Where? There is no (sensible) Mastery bonus for either non-feral tree that makes sense for Ferals. Sensible first tier mastery bonuses for Resto is + healing; for balance it's + Spell Damage. Neither is useful for Feral. Sensible second tier bonuses are OK. Probably + crit or + haste, those ferals can use somewhat (though haste is meh as it is now, it will probably be more useful in Cataclysm). Third tiers are again almost certain to be "spell" related for both trees (since they're casters). It's not that the Mastery for resto is likely to bad for feral, it's that the Masteries for any other tree are likely to be. Which puts us either putting 76 points in the feral tree (likely taking every single talent regardless of usefulness), or putting point into trees with completely pointless Mastery bonuses.

    I'm sure there's a twist I'm missing or some not yet released bit of information that answers this. I don't think Blizzard has failed to note it. Shadow Priests are likely to have the same problem, as are Holy Pallies. I just don't think it will be as simple as "reshuffling" the talents though. There are simply no better places to put the talents in question.

  15. #135

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by DrgnDancer
    That isn't really what concerns me. Move the talents out of Resto to... Where? There is no (sensible) Mastery bonus for either non-feral tree that makes sense for Ferals. Sensible first tier mastery bonuses for Resto is + healing; for balance it's + Spell Damage. Neither is useful for Feral. Sensible second tier bonuses are OK. Probably + crit or + haste, those ferals can use somewhat (though haste is meh as it is now, it will probably be more useful in Cataclysm). Third tiers are again almost certain to be "spell" related for both trees (since they're casters). It's not that the Mastery for resto is likely to bad for feral, it's that the Masteries for any other tree are likely to be. Which puts us either putting 76 points in the feral tree (likely taking every single talent regardless of usefulness), or putting point into trees with completely pointless Mastery bonuses.

    I'm sure there's a twist I'm missing or some not yet released bit of information that answers this. I don't think Blizzard has failed to note it. Shadow Priests are likely to have the same problem, as are Holy Pallies. I just don't think it will be as simple as "reshuffling" the talents though. There are simply no better places to put the talents in question.
    Keep in mind, the talents like Naturalist and Master Shapeshifter are the ones they are trying to get rid of (i.e. talents that just give a straight up +% damage), ergo (possibly) making putting points in Resto, well, pointless.

    I know what you're saying, but it's all stuff that they're aware of and are working to fix.

    One of the suggestions that many people have made is having the masteries get adjusted depending on stance/form/presence/etc. So for example, points in Resto in caster/tree form provide +healing, but in Bear form provides damage reductions, or something of the like.

  16. #136

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by hoot80
    That's fine, but the guy was just trying to point out an example of a talent that felt a little useless that with the new mastery system wouldn't feel quite so useless since you would see some type of stat increase just by putting points in the talent. No need to nitpick and call Bliz stupid because he stated the wrong name of the ability for his example.
    Blizz tries, they get paid like everyone else, they can only please so many people. I will state it as many do, its just a game, not a way of life. Deal with that shit.
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  17. #137

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Only Europe will get the Mastery System though,
    The US gets the Imperial system.

  18. #138

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd
    And people keep ignoring all the further posts in that blue thread. . . Serious people just read the fucking blue thread before making ridiculous comments that assume Blizzard cannot predict things that would be obvious to anyone with half a brain:

    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    WoW players must QQ, else they die.

  19. #139

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    At Blizzcon they said that they wanted to get rid of boring Hit talents. Think we'll get some +hit from Mastery depending on spec? as a DW DPS I really don't want to stack hit exclusively from gear.

  20. #140

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd
    ... before making ridiculous comments that assume Blizzard cannot predict things that would be obvious to anyone with half a brain:
    Yet there have been times when Blizzard cannot predict. So it's not without merit to cry wolf at the first sign of a problem.

    It sounds like their trying to fight cookie cutter builds and allow people more individuality, but I wager that's a futile gesture thanks to websites like this, WH, and EJ. People will do the math and calculate the best results, and the mass's will follow. I really hope blizzard uses mastery to weight down the roles and segregate everyone. I guess I'm just sick of blizzard always trying to make everyone good at every roll and dumbing down the game to the lowest braincell. All too early to tell.

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