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  1. #141
    Field Marshal Daegalus's Avatar
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    Re: Mastery System Preview

    After reading the post a few times, I gathered that you get all 3 bonuses even with 1 point in, but at different scaling. Example:
    (these are rough and made up but its just to get the point across)

    26/50 Holy Priest
    Holy Tree:
    Healing - Increases your healing by 53%
    Meditation - Increases your mana regen from Spirit in combat by 53%
    Radiance - Adds a Hot Component that heals 53% of the main heal over time.

    Discipline Tree:
    Healing - Increases your healing by 18%
    Meditation - Increases your mana regen from Spirit in combat by 18%
    Absorption - Increases dmg absorbed by PW:S by 18%

    VS.

    50/26 Disc Priests
    Holy Tree:
    Healing: 18% Increase
    Meditation: 18% mana regen increases from Spirit
    Radiance: 18% of the Heal will be done as a HoT

    Discipline Tree:
    Healing: 53% Increase
    Meditation: 53% Increase
    Absorption: 53% more dmg absorbed by PW:S

    Now the numbers will scale differently and it won't be so linear, so for example 26 points will only equate to 15% bonus, or something. This way, subspecing doesn't harm you very much versus going full 76 points into a tree. ya 76% healing increase is nice, but 65% increases plus a 15% radiance might turn out better healing in end game. Same goes for the Mediatation mastery. I'll re-read the post but from the way it was worded, this is how I see it working. Also, they don't have to be necessarily the same scaling. For example you could probably get 22% healing if you put 26 points into Holy and only 13% healing by putting points into Disc, or vice versa. It will probably be scaled based on the way the spec works and the talents you get in the tree.

    So I don't think going full 76 points into a tree would be as beneficial as going say 51/25 or something.

  2. #142

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasyn
    2. Hybrid classes will likely get shuffled a little bit to fix the issue with incompatible talents/masteries (i.e., bears getting healing bonuses for the resto talents that are "mandatory")
    That isn't really what concerns me. Move the talents out of Resto to... Where? There is no (sensible) Mastery bonus for either non-feral tree that makes sense for Ferals. Sensible first tier mastery bonuses for Resto is + healing; for balance it's + Spell Damage. Neither is useful for Feral. Sensible second tier bonuses are OK. Probably + crit or + haste, those ferals can use somewhat (though haste is meh as it is now, it will probably be more useful in Cataclysm). Third tiers are again almost certain to be "spell" related for both trees (since they're casters). It's not that the Mastery for resto is likely to bad for feral, it's that the Masteries for any other tree are likely to be. Which puts us either putting 76 points in the feral tree (likely taking every single talent regardless of usefulness), or putting point into trees with completely pointless Mastery bonuses.

    I'm sure there's a twist I'm missing or some not yet released bit of information that answers this. I don't think Blizzard has failed to note it. Shadow Priests are likely to have the same problem, as are Holy Pallies. I just don't think it will be as simple as "reshuffling" the talents though. There are simply no better places to put the talents in question.

  3. #143

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by DrgnDancer
    That isn't really what concerns me. Move the talents out of Resto to... Where? There is no (sensible) Mastery bonus for either non-feral tree that makes sense for Ferals. Sensible first tier mastery bonuses for Resto is + healing; for balance it's + Spell Damage. Neither is useful for Feral. Sensible second tier bonuses are OK. Probably + crit or + haste, those ferals can use somewhat (though haste is meh as it is now, it will probably be more useful in Cataclysm). Third tiers are again almost certain to be "spell" related for both trees (since they're casters). It's not that the Mastery for resto is likely to bad for feral, it's that the Masteries for any other tree are likely to be. Which puts us either putting 76 points in the feral tree (likely taking every single talent regardless of usefulness), or putting point into trees with completely pointless Mastery bonuses.

    I'm sure there's a twist I'm missing or some not yet released bit of information that answers this. I don't think Blizzard has failed to note it. Shadow Priests are likely to have the same problem, as are Holy Pallies. I just don't think it will be as simple as "reshuffling" the talents though. There are simply no better places to put the talents in question.
    Keep in mind, the talents like Naturalist and Master Shapeshifter are the ones they are trying to get rid of (i.e. talents that just give a straight up +% damage), ergo (possibly) making putting points in Resto, well, pointless.

    I know what you're saying, but it's all stuff that they're aware of and are working to fix.

    One of the suggestions that many people have made is having the masteries get adjusted depending on stance/form/presence/etc. So for example, points in Resto in caster/tree form provide +healing, but in Bear form provides damage reductions, or something of the like.

  4. #144
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by hoot80
    That's fine, but the guy was just trying to point out an example of a talent that felt a little useless that with the new mastery system wouldn't feel quite so useless since you would see some type of stat increase just by putting points in the talent. No need to nitpick and call Bliz stupid because he stated the wrong name of the ability for his example.
    Blizz tries, they get paid like everyone else, they can only please so many people. I will state it as many do, its just a game, not a way of life. Deal with that shit.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  5. #145

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Only Europe will get the Mastery System though,
    The US gets the Imperial system.

  6. #146

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    And people keep ignoring all the further posts in that blue thread. . . Serious people just read the fucking blue thread before making ridiculous comments that assume Blizzard cannot predict things that would be obvious to anyone with half a brain:

    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html

  7. #147

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd
    And people keep ignoring all the further posts in that blue thread. . . Serious people just read the fucking blue thread before making ridiculous comments that assume Blizzard cannot predict things that would be obvious to anyone with half a brain:

    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    WoW players must QQ, else they die.

  8. #148

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    At Blizzcon they said that they wanted to get rid of boring Hit talents. Think we'll get some +hit from Mastery depending on spec? as a DW DPS I really don't want to stack hit exclusively from gear.
    Torethirnyi, Blackwing's Bane - Orc Enhancement Shaman - <Conviction> of Korgath - (H) 9/13 25-man - Retired from WoW in 4.1
    Champion Torethyr Sarin - Cyborg Vengeance Juggernaut - <Conviction> of Prophecy of the Five - 10/10 Nightmare Mode - Retired

    Nothing makes you hate MMOs more than having played MMOs.

  9. #149

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd
    ... before making ridiculous comments that assume Blizzard cannot predict things that would be obvious to anyone with half a brain:
    Yet there have been times when Blizzard cannot predict. So it's not without merit to cry wolf at the first sign of a problem.

    It sounds like their trying to fight cookie cutter builds and allow people more individuality, but I wager that's a futile gesture thanks to websites like this, WH, and EJ. People will do the math and calculate the best results, and the mass's will follow. I really hope blizzard uses mastery to weight down the roles and segregate everyone. I guess I'm just sick of blizzard always trying to make everyone good at every roll and dumbing down the game to the lowest braincell. All too early to tell.

  10. #150

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd
    And people keep ignoring all the further posts in that blue thread. . . Serious people just read the fucking blue thread before making ridiculous comments that assume Blizzard cannot predict things that would be obvious to anyone with half a brain:

    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/23614...m-preview.html
    Told ya, I can't see the official forums at work. Again, I was never QQing, just expressing at interest in how they're going to fix it. Feel free to link relevant Blizzquotes.

  11. #151
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Re: Mastery System Preview

    I think when all is said and done it will work splendidly.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  12. #152

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    People bang on to much about QQ and theorycrafting.

    Last time I checked this was a forum where people can say how they feel.

    Some will disagree and add some additional information / quotes that will prove / disprove these points. That's the fun and interesting thing about forums.

    Of course you will get the odd idiot or too but if hearing people discuss "potential changes" (hence it's all theory and this theorycrafting) log off lol and save us the I hate blizz crap.

    Roll on the changes and roll on more posts to give us more teasers and speculation.


  13. #153
    Field Marshal
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    Re: Mastery System Preview

    I love it can't wait until Cataclysm

  14. #154

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground
    I think when all is said and done it will work splendidly.
    This.

    Blizz has been very quick in fixing things this expac and I'm hoping this will continue with cata. If something doesn't work, they will fix it.

    As for people saying classes won't be balanced after mastery comes out. Yes, they won't be balanced. They won't balanced no matter what you do. They will NEVER be balanced. There will always be some class that will stay slightly better at something then others. But it won't be so big that class will be broken. If some class is behind others, they can always change the mastery bonus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  15. #155

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest
    This.

    Blizz has been very quick in fixing things this expac and I'm hoping this will continue with cata. If something doesn't work, they will fix it.

    As for people saying classes won't be balanced after mastery comes out. Yes, they won't be balanced. They won't balanced no matter what you do. They will NEVER be balanced. There will always be some class that will stay slightly better at something then others. But it won't be so big that class will be broken. If some class is behind others, they can always change the mastery bonus.
    I think mastery would be the ultimate band-aid balance fix.

    X class is doing Y% more damage than anyone else? Reduce their damage mastery by Y%.

    X Tank is taking Y% more damage than other tanks? Increase damage reduction by Y%

    It's overall a pretty lame way to do it, but effective.

  16. #156

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Bagnar
    That is actually the plan. Doing blizzcon Blizz stated that there would be a cap or diminishing return on how many mastery points you would get from dropping all points in this. My guess is they will either cap or slow down the points at 51 points. Since for most 51 points is needed in 1 tree.

    Now obvious the main problems atm is as others have said how they will make this work for hybrids and specs that do 2 things (Dks and Feral). But the hybrid bit could easly be solved simple by the fact Blizz want a hybrid dps to be slightly lower than a real dps, and if a hybrid then lose out on an dps increase from having to go into another tree that dont provide dps increases for them, well then they just get some of their lower dps right there.

    I personally cant wait to see what happens with our talents, what we get of new fun tools to play with and what talents are seperated into 2 talents, as im sure there will be several of the talents that currently provide 3-4 effects in 1.

    And while the possiblities for this system not being done currectly are huge due to the large amount of changes this effects, i for one have faith in Blizzard. Im sure it wont be perfect from the start but considering how long WoW have been around and how many of us are still playing it even now, i think we can all agree they must still know something about their game :P
    This.

    There's a problem right now with pure DPS classes being overshadowed a bit too much (IMO) by hybrid classes.

    Look at it this way: When you roll a hybrid class, you should be doing it so that you have access to multiple types of abilities and can diversify your playstyle. This diversity (or flexibility if you prefer) is the primary draw of a hybrid. The ability to do multiple kinds of things without respeccing or rolling a different class.

    When you roll a pure class, you give up this diversity and balance (hell, logic) dictates that there needs to be some sort of trade-off. In Wrath there hasn't been one. Hybrid DPSers have been putting out as much if not more DPS than many pures, while bringing the diversity of a non-pure class.

    From the perspective of hybrid players, this isn't a problem.
    From the perspective of pure players, it's the end of the world.
    From the perspective of someone with a LOT of 80s who has raiding experience on all of them it's not the end of the world, but it is a problem.

    I like the idea of the mastery system because it will put a bit tuning nob on the various classes that the devs can turn to balance classes against one another. I also like it because it will, by it's nature, give a slight DPS advantage to some of the pure DPS classes over some of the hybrids.

    Ret paladins won't be able to stack pure DPS masteries and will be forced to pump their survivability or healing once they cap their ret talents. There will be QQ.

    Elemental and Enhancement Shamans that sub resto will enhance their healing. Some will embrace this and pop off the occasional heal when it would be useful to their raid. Many will QQ.

    Truth be told, when we see the release version of the mastery system we might have to agree on a new definition of the terms "pure" and "hybrid" to take talent point allocation into account because some classes will have the option to spec purely for DPS while others will be unable to do so.

    We will see.

  17. #157

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Arandmoor

    Truth be told, when we see the release version of the mastery system we might have to agree on a new definition of the terms "pure" and "hybrid" to take talent point allocation into account because some classes will have the option to spec purely for DPS while others will be unable to do so.

    We will see.
    I've always felt there should be (and is) a difference between the classes with two roles and those with three (or four).

    For example - Warriors have three trees, but two specs. They are able to spec into a "pure" dps spec, by having two dps trees (there is no "pure" tanking spec, as there is only one tanking tree).

    Death knights could be "pure" dps or "pure" tank, since they have three of each trees, technically.

    Druids, Shaman (to a lesser extent) and Paladins are all kind of single-tree single-role classes (although druids have two specs in one tree with feral). Enhancement shaman, in their current form, could technically be "pure" dps, since enhancement uses spells that are enhanced by elemental talents.

    Priests are a bit of an oddity, since they have two healing trees and one dps tree, and are in the same boat as druids. Having a healing sub-tree isn't useful, since they would have to break form to throw a heal, unlike shaman and paladin.

    So what is there to do? Different names for difference classes of hybrids?

    e.g.

    "Pure DPS" - Hunter, Lock, Mage, Rogue
    "Full Healer" - Holy/Disc Priest
    "Full DPS" - Enhancement Shaman, Fury/Arms Warrior, any DK dps
    "Hybrid" - All druid, Elemental/Resto Shaman, all Paladin, Shadow Priest

  18. #158

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Torethyr
    At Blizzcon they said that they wanted to get rid of boring Hit talents. Think we'll get some +hit from Mastery depending on spec? as a DW DPS I really don't want to stack hit exclusively from gear.
    Based on earlier blue posts, hit will be on gear. Further, more hit will be needed as you scale raid content such that.... hit will continue to be on lots of gear. To give you an idea, Boomkins and Ele Shaman will share gear with their Resto counterparts. Gear with Spirit on it. The Boom/Ele's will have talents to convert Spirit to Hit. That's a lot of Spirit

    As for these fun tools people get excited about, I'm wondering how often they'll really be used. You can probably have fun with them solo at times. Some might come in handy for pvp. Perhaps there will be some minor benefit in raids as well. Yet I'm wondering how useful these utilities will be in raids overall. Raid specs may end up, "take these talents and drop another XX points into X tree. Specific talents don't really matter as nothing else will impact your raid performance." In the end, that doesn't really sound fun either. Anther possibility is that there's enough mandatory talents that we just continue to take all of those and still skip the utility talents.

    Now, this is all speculation. We won't know until we start seeing more examples of the talent trees. If implemented well, it shouldn't be a problem. If not? We could end up with lots of fodder points or still end up with none to spare. A small handful to spread around would probably suffice. Say, the additional 5 they're giving us?

  19. #159

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    I'd expect hit as the second mastery stat for some of the trees that support DW. Combat rogue, fury warrior or enhancement shaman for instance.

  20. #160
    The Lightbringer Malthurius's Avatar
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    Re: Mastery System Preview

    The mastery system isn't there to be "Cool", it's there to remove talents like "Increases chance to crit by 5%" or "Increases damage with ranged weapons by 10%" and replace those talents with "fun" talents to remove "bad specs" from the game. In other words, the phrase "Cookie Cutter Spec" will be less of a presence when specing.
    "Questions are for those seeking answers. Those who have answers are those who have asked questions." -Mike R. (Malthurius)

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