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  1. #161

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasyn
    I've always felt there should be (and is) a difference between the classes with two roles and those with three (or four).

    For example - Warriors have three trees, but two specs. They are able to spec into a "pure" dps spec, by having two dps trees (there is no "pure" tanking spec, as there is only one tanking tree).

    Death knights could be "pure" dps or "pure" tank, since they have three of each trees, technically.

    Druids, Shaman (to a lesser extent) and Paladins are all kind of single-tree single-role classes (although druids have two specs in one tree with feral). Enhancement shaman, in their current form, could technically be "pure" dps, since enhancement uses spells that are enhanced by elemental talents.

    Priests are a bit of an oddity, since they have two healing trees and one dps tree, and are in the same boat as druids. Having a healing sub-tree isn't useful, since they would have to break form to throw a heal, unlike shaman and paladin.

    So what is there to do? Different names for difference classes of hybrids?

    e.g.

    "Pure DPS" - Hunter, Lock, Mage, Rogue
    "Full Healer" - Holy/Disc Priest
    "Full DPS" - Enhancement Shaman, Fury/Arms Warrior, any DK dps
    "Hybrid" - All druid, Elemental/Resto Shaman, all Paladin, Shadow Priest
    Druids have always been an oddball even as hybrids go. They are theoretically the most versatile single class, able to effectively perform all 4 roles (tank, healer, melee DPS, or ranged DPS). Conversely they are probably the most limited of the hybrids, because to perform any of these roles well, they have to be in the correct form. The penalty for being out of form is less serious for the healing spec, more so for the two DPS specs, and largely insurmountable for the tank spec. A tanking Druid that switches out of form to perform any sort of utility spell may as well just wipe the raid, unless they are not currently tanking in a tank switch fight. DPS isn't so bad, you basically just lose some DPS time to form switches, in addition to the casting time of the spell. Healers can actually heal pretty effectively out of form, though the 5% bonus healing is nice.

    The form switching could give Blizz some extra tools to work with on Mastery Bonuses, but it could make the Druid Mastery stuff kind of confusing.

    "So I get + healing from my resto tree points right?"
    "Yeah, but only in tree form."
    "What about elf form?"
    "Uh, you get + melee damage?"
    "I thought that was only in cat form?"
    "Wait, what about bear form, that gets + melee damage too, right?"
    "I thought that was expertise?"
    ....

    It probably won't be that bad : but I can see it getting kinda messy if they go that route. Better than forcing us to spend all out points in one tree though. I guess we'll see.

  2. #162

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Shigenari
    I find it funny how even though this is just a small preview of a system which is still in development (i.e. unfinished) and Blizzard have already stated that the talent trees will also be changing in Cataclysm, people are still totally ready to definitively say "This will gimp (Insert poster's class here)" or vice versa, without actually having any idea what the talents will be, what the stats on gear will be, how stat coefficients will change or how this system will work in conjunction with Path of the Titans (something which we still know very little about. People have said things along the lines of "X class doesn't have enough useful talents to use 72 points in 1 tree" even though they actually have no clue about what will be added to the trees and what will be removed.

    At this stage, there is simply nowhere near enough information to draw any sort of useful conclusions as to what these changes will mean once Cataclysm hits, and even if there was, the pointless, poorly thought out conjecture that people are spouting would be entirely inadequate when it comes to actually working out the benefits/drawbacks to any class/spec combination.
    I totally agree with this opinion. I believe that the new system might be much more sophisticated and interesting than we can actually imagine by the combination of mastery with Path of the Titans, as Blizzard tries to refresh the game. But I also guess that his system will benefit to large guilds, who will have the capacity to specialize their members.

  3. #163

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasyn
    I think mastery would be the ultimate band-aid balance fix.

    X class is doing Y% more damage than anyone else? Reduce their damage mastery by Y%.

    X Tank is taking Y% more damage than other tanks? Increase damage reduction by Y%

    It's overall a pretty lame way to do it, but effective.
    This is one of the best things they have gained by doing the mastery system. INstead of having to increase talents that might push them over there respective levels and into OPness, they can just increase/lower there mastery by a little bit.

    Also they said there will be disminishing returns on the points at blizzcon. So no, 76 points into one tree will not be that helpfull, on top of that I don't even think you can fit all 76 points into one tree to start with. A Mage might only gain +50% spell damage from doing 51 points into one tree when a shadow priest might gain +70% spell damage from putting it all in the shadow tree. However when that mage adds the rest of the points into one of hte other two trees, there total damage bonus might be +75-80% more spell damage.

    So yes, this might make 1 tree DPS classes like priests and paladins, or even some trees like elemental shamans more hybrid like. which will inturn piss off the pures.

    Note: THe reason why I say elemental shamans is since elemental shamans do not gain from +Melee damage, unlike how enhancement shamans can gain from the +spell damage from the elemental tree. So blizzard can balance enhancement on going off both trees but would have to do elemental as a standalone.


    Plus, it is really too early to really do anything. We only know two priest trees, one death knight tree, the paladin and rogue trees. The Paladin and Rogue trees are subject to change thought since it might have difference bonuses from the blizzcon picture.

  4. #164
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by carlos5577
    that looks good. i wonder what mages get 8)
    "theory"

    Mage, increases spelldamage by X, Haste by X and increases damage on frostbolt/firbolt/arcane blast by x%


    Ret paladins. Increases attackpower by X, Haste by X, Your haste now reduces cooldown on Judgement, Divine Storm and Exorsism.


    Prot Warrior. Decreases damage taken by X%, Increases HP by X%, Your charge reduces damage taken by X% for the next 5 incoming damage.
    9thorder.com | 14/14 Heroic 25-man | West 114 | Recruiting for Warlords of Draenor!

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  5. #165

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Mastery is not with skills. Mastery won't empower only an ability, it's not a tier bonus.

    As they said, Pala retri will have a passive reduction of ALL its cooldowns with mastery.

    And that "bonus" from charge will be useless in PvE, as not in many fights tank warriors have the oportunity to stand far of the boss and charge every CD.
    I'm Spanish, so please, don't be so rude; I know my English is not perfect :S

  6. #166

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    TIME TO GO 21/21/21!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  7. #167

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Pretty concerned what kind of mastery will be given to feral druids because they either dps or tank.

  8. #168
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by sasguard
    Pretty concerned what kind of mastery will be given to feral druids because they either dps or tank.
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...10210871&sid=1

    Go read it yourself ^^
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Try to boil everything down to a negative catch phrase all you want. We're still going to spend countless hours making Warlords of Draenor the most epic expansion possible.

  9. #169

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Enchancement:

    Increases 2H damage done by xx% so they can actually be viable again...
    Definition of useless -

    Q. Any plans for an untalented spell to help warlocks deal with stuns?
    A. Possibly. It’s also possible we may take a look at stuns in general. But overall stuns will feel less impacting in an environment where players have significantly more health than they do today.

  10. #170

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Like it alot. Lets just hope they will implement it in a non-boring way. They need to make sure that mastery is a stat and not an "itemlevelbonus" (the way spellpower is today, booooring).

  11. #171
    Field Marshal toringx's Avatar
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    Re: Mastery System Preview


    I like this! Adds a little more complexity to your character. Combined with simplification of the stats on gear it balances out well for overall complexity in the game. So it balances two coins, one simplicity on stats of gear for newer/less experienced players but adds complexity for those that want to really min/max.
    - THERE ARE ONLY 11 TYPES OF PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD. Those that think binary jokes are funny, those that don't, and those that don't know binary.

  12. #172

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    I'm glad they clarified in that post that there's a cap to the bonuses. Otherwise ret paladins would have NO reason to go into any of the other trees. Now the drawback I'm seeing is that those bonuses for holy/prot are not going to increase our dps like they would for a DK in their example. Anyone who doesn't have 2 dps trees is probably going to have to have their single dps tree have some MAJOR bonuses... but then we're unbalanced again because we get all the offensive power of 2 (or 3) trees in one but would also get the defensive power of our other trees..

    HOW WILL THEY DO IT?! TEH SUSPENSE - IT KILLS ME

  13. #173

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    This is going to effect Feral and DK tanks in an interesting way, since most likely Feral and all DK masteries are going to be geared towards extra damage directly/indirectly. How then, are these tank classes going to compare to Warrior and Paladin tanking masteries? If the masteries solely increased damage directly/indirectly then it would be safe to assume it's balanced. But... my guess is they won't do that. Percentage based tanking masteries are going to put DK's and Bears at a slight gimp.

    Just two cents worth. I suppose we'll learn more soon.

  14. #174

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    I have to say, i'm a bit underwhelmed by the priests mastery stuff. The first two mastery bonuses for each spec are obviously to REPLACE pre-existing talents which provide a straight boost to mana regen and healing.
    The third bonus on each tree look like they're from a set bonus. "Your flash heals now have a 50% chance to put a HoT on your target", "your PW:S can absorb 10% more damage", etc. Kinda feels like I've seen it all on gear / spec already.

    I'll wait until I see it in action though before I jump to conclusions, I'm hoping they've got a good reason for this, and it's not just change for changes sake.

  15. #175

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Patch notes in Cataclysm are gonna be boring.

    Warlock
    +Damage from mastery is reduced by 14%

    Paladin
    +Healing from mastery is increased by 2%

    etc etc.

    Blizzard said that the intent is to do it that way, to have a "Hunger for Blood" talent for every spec of every class that they can easily change to balance things out. And while it makes things easier for them it makes it pretty boring for players.

    Also, i wonder if there is a bit of new information in 3.3.3 prepatch part.

  16. #176

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasyn
    I've always felt there should be (and is) a difference between the classes with two roles and those with three (or four).
    I'm a bit confused as to where you want to be going with this whole concept. If it's to set a baseline for the "hybrid tax", you seem to be misconstruing why the tax exists. It's not as much a "payment" for being able to do multiple jobs within the context of a single fight. It's a "payment" for being able to switch roles BETWEEN fights without gaining levels 2 through 80 a second time. Since everyone can dps, there is no "pure" healing or tanking class at all, so all healers and tanks are balanced toward an even keel without priests being better healers than druids because they can both dps but druids can't tank or anything like that. It would be a lot harder to balance the game around certain tanks or healers being better than others, while it's easier to balance dps around that because non-pure dps is more prevailent than pure dps simply because 3% less dps (if that, in the case of melee hybrids; caster hybrids pay 3%, or more like 10% for boomkins because Blizz seems to think if druids want to dps they should be feral) is a small price to pay to not be pigeonholed into one role forever.

  17. #177

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Xentropy
    I'm a bit confused as to where you want to be going with this whole concept. If it's to set a baseline for the "hybrid tax", you seem to be misconstruing why the tax exists. It's not as much a "payment" for being able to do multiple jobs within the context of a single fight. It's a "payment" for being able to switch roles BETWEEN fights without gaining levels 2 through 80 a second time. Since everyone can dps, there is no "pure" healing or tanking class at all, so all healers and tanks are balanced toward an even keel without priests being better healers than druids because they can both dps but druids can't tank or anything like that. It would be a lot harder to balance the game around certain tanks or healers being better than others, while it's easier to balance dps around that because non-pure dps is more prevailent than pure dps simply because 3% less dps (if that, in the case of melee hybrids; caster hybrids pay 3%, or more like 10% for boomkins because Blizz seems to think if druids want to dps they should be feral) is a small price to pay to not be pigeonholed into one role forever.
    I didn't mean to imply that I want disparity between the classes, I was just pointing out that the definition of "hybrid" has changed drastically since 2004, and indeed that "hybrid" in terms of Shaman is not the same as "hybrid" in terms of Druid.

    Back in the day, priest and warrior weren't considered "hybrid" (that I know of) because there were only heal/dps, or tank/dps. What I always understood to be the "hybrid" classes were the ones that fulfil ALL roles.


    I don't think a "hybrid tax" is necessary, but I do feel that a few percent doesn't matter, especially when you bring Bloodlust/Heroism, Rebirth, Hands of Salv/Protection/Freedom, innervate, etc. You could take 2 tanks, 5 healers and 17 Mutilate Rogues, but God I wouldn't want to be in that raid.

    More often than not, when one class whines that X class does Y% more damage than Z class, X class gets nerfed, Z class doesn't get buffed, I.E. net loss.


    So on the topic of masteries, sure if I'm a resto shaman, a few points in elemental won't increase my healing, but won't that 1 second off shock cooldown (for example) be great for helping out interrupts, making you a more effective ASSET, rather than just an effective healer? (probably terrible example, but I think you get the gist)

    You could relate the "balance" issues to a game like Modern Warfare, vs a game like MAG.

    In Modern Warfare, you can absolutely be a one man army, and take out entire teams by yourself, but in MAG the individual means diddly. You can't win anything without your squadmates at your side.

    If people in WoW would worry less about being a hero, and more about helping their fellow raid/party mates, I think the slight differences would matter less, and people would have more fun playing the game.

    On my main, I specced Demonology to bring Demonic Pact. Keep in mind, I've never played Demo AT ALL, and I've always hated it. Sure, I could do SLIGHTLY more overall damage as Affliction, but that difference is totally meaningless in the grand scheme of things, and my guild absolutely loves the 400+ spellpower buff they get. And to tell you the truth, I started to like Demo, and now I won't play anything else, except on specific encounters.

    TL/DR version: Quit thinking like a Diva.

    /end rambling. It's late.

  18. #178

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    I don't really think wanting to be able to do my job better because I can't do any other jobs without spending weeks leveling a new character is "being a diva". I don't really QQ about it like some people do, though. I just feel the ideal state of the game would be for pures (as in, pure dps) to have some advantage over hybrids to make up for all the advantages hybrids have. For me to even find out what healing is like I need to either have a friend willing to let me try out their character (against the ToS anyway) or spend hundreds of hours of prep time just for the experience of level 80 healing. Meanwhile a feral cat can see what healing is like by spending hundreds of seconds looking up a build and respecing. And still do the same dps as me while feral. Does that really make sense? What do I bring to the table as a pure dps class to make up for the loss of ability to enjoy different roles?

    Again, not a QQ. I love my class. I have a lot of fun playing the game. I just wonder what tanking and healing are like and will never know because I can't stand old world questing all over again to find out. If I were a paladin or druid, I'd probably have just as much fun and certainly do just as much dps, but also be able to experience the other 2/3rds of the game without rehashing terrible old world quest design. Cataclysm redesigning old world to make the leveling experience FUN up to lvl 58 again may fix the whole issue for me. Right now just the thought of going through that grind again, even with +20% XP from heirlooms, is a big turnoff. So I have fun and enjoy the 1/3rd of the game open to me as a pure, and hope I'm not missing anything big in the other 2/3rds of the roles.

    Basically, for me, the whole "what if" scenario is what drives me nuts. What if I'd enjoy healing 3x as much as I enjoy dps? I'll never know! What if all I'd need to conquer burnout from time to time while waiting for a new tier would be to change roles for a while? I'll never know! Healers and tanks never have to wonder what it's like to dps; it's always just a respec away. Four classes will always just be wondering what it's like to do something OTHER than dps. And the reason that situation exists is that tanks and healers wanted to be heroes and Blizzard caved and let everyone dps equally. It sort of makes pures pointless. If I were starting the game up today, and I recommend this to anyone just now getting into WoW, I'd definitely roll a hybrid. There's no point being a pure, all you can do is one thing, and no better than the hybrids. Back when I chose mage it meant something. Now it just means giving up 2/3rds of the game from the first click.

  19. #179

  20. #180

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by SalcN
    I honestly dont like that they wanna make it idiotic f. ex. for paladins to wear Leather -- cause appereantly they dont know how to make good plate gear
    ^this

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