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  1. #161

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    I'm glad they clarified in that post that there's a cap to the bonuses. Otherwise ret paladins would have NO reason to go into any of the other trees. Now the drawback I'm seeing is that those bonuses for holy/prot are not going to increase our dps like they would for a DK in their example. Anyone who doesn't have 2 dps trees is probably going to have to have their single dps tree have some MAJOR bonuses... but then we're unbalanced again because we get all the offensive power of 2 (or 3) trees in one but would also get the defensive power of our other trees..

    HOW WILL THEY DO IT?! TEH SUSPENSE - IT KILLS ME

  2. #162

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    This is going to effect Feral and DK tanks in an interesting way, since most likely Feral and all DK masteries are going to be geared towards extra damage directly/indirectly. How then, are these tank classes going to compare to Warrior and Paladin tanking masteries? If the masteries solely increased damage directly/indirectly then it would be safe to assume it's balanced. But... my guess is they won't do that. Percentage based tanking masteries are going to put DK's and Bears at a slight gimp.

    Just two cents worth. I suppose we'll learn more soon.

  3. #163

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    I have to say, i'm a bit underwhelmed by the priests mastery stuff. The first two mastery bonuses for each spec are obviously to REPLACE pre-existing talents which provide a straight boost to mana regen and healing.
    The third bonus on each tree look like they're from a set bonus. "Your flash heals now have a 50% chance to put a HoT on your target", "your PW:S can absorb 10% more damage", etc. Kinda feels like I've seen it all on gear / spec already.

    I'll wait until I see it in action though before I jump to conclusions, I'm hoping they've got a good reason for this, and it's not just change for changes sake.

  4. #164

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Patch notes in Cataclysm are gonna be boring.

    Warlock
    +Damage from mastery is reduced by 14%

    Paladin
    +Healing from mastery is increased by 2%

    etc etc.

    Blizzard said that the intent is to do it that way, to have a "Hunger for Blood" talent for every spec of every class that they can easily change to balance things out. And while it makes things easier for them it makes it pretty boring for players.

    Also, i wonder if there is a bit of new information in 3.3.3 prepatch part.

  5. #165

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasyn
    I've always felt there should be (and is) a difference between the classes with two roles and those with three (or four).
    I'm a bit confused as to where you want to be going with this whole concept. If it's to set a baseline for the "hybrid tax", you seem to be misconstruing why the tax exists. It's not as much a "payment" for being able to do multiple jobs within the context of a single fight. It's a "payment" for being able to switch roles BETWEEN fights without gaining levels 2 through 80 a second time. Since everyone can dps, there is no "pure" healing or tanking class at all, so all healers and tanks are balanced toward an even keel without priests being better healers than druids because they can both dps but druids can't tank or anything like that. It would be a lot harder to balance the game around certain tanks or healers being better than others, while it's easier to balance dps around that because non-pure dps is more prevailent than pure dps simply because 3% less dps (if that, in the case of melee hybrids; caster hybrids pay 3%, or more like 10% for boomkins because Blizz seems to think if druids want to dps they should be feral) is a small price to pay to not be pigeonholed into one role forever.

  6. #166

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Xentropy
    I'm a bit confused as to where you want to be going with this whole concept. If it's to set a baseline for the "hybrid tax", you seem to be misconstruing why the tax exists. It's not as much a "payment" for being able to do multiple jobs within the context of a single fight. It's a "payment" for being able to switch roles BETWEEN fights without gaining levels 2 through 80 a second time. Since everyone can dps, there is no "pure" healing or tanking class at all, so all healers and tanks are balanced toward an even keel without priests being better healers than druids because they can both dps but druids can't tank or anything like that. It would be a lot harder to balance the game around certain tanks or healers being better than others, while it's easier to balance dps around that because non-pure dps is more prevailent than pure dps simply because 3% less dps (if that, in the case of melee hybrids; caster hybrids pay 3%, or more like 10% for boomkins because Blizz seems to think if druids want to dps they should be feral) is a small price to pay to not be pigeonholed into one role forever.
    I didn't mean to imply that I want disparity between the classes, I was just pointing out that the definition of "hybrid" has changed drastically since 2004, and indeed that "hybrid" in terms of Shaman is not the same as "hybrid" in terms of Druid.

    Back in the day, priest and warrior weren't considered "hybrid" (that I know of) because there were only heal/dps, or tank/dps. What I always understood to be the "hybrid" classes were the ones that fulfil ALL roles.


    I don't think a "hybrid tax" is necessary, but I do feel that a few percent doesn't matter, especially when you bring Bloodlust/Heroism, Rebirth, Hands of Salv/Protection/Freedom, innervate, etc. You could take 2 tanks, 5 healers and 17 Mutilate Rogues, but God I wouldn't want to be in that raid.

    More often than not, when one class whines that X class does Y% more damage than Z class, X class gets nerfed, Z class doesn't get buffed, I.E. net loss.


    So on the topic of masteries, sure if I'm a resto shaman, a few points in elemental won't increase my healing, but won't that 1 second off shock cooldown (for example) be great for helping out interrupts, making you a more effective ASSET, rather than just an effective healer? (probably terrible example, but I think you get the gist)

    You could relate the "balance" issues to a game like Modern Warfare, vs a game like MAG.

    In Modern Warfare, you can absolutely be a one man army, and take out entire teams by yourself, but in MAG the individual means diddly. You can't win anything without your squadmates at your side.

    If people in WoW would worry less about being a hero, and more about helping their fellow raid/party mates, I think the slight differences would matter less, and people would have more fun playing the game.

    On my main, I specced Demonology to bring Demonic Pact. Keep in mind, I've never played Demo AT ALL, and I've always hated it. Sure, I could do SLIGHTLY more overall damage as Affliction, but that difference is totally meaningless in the grand scheme of things, and my guild absolutely loves the 400+ spellpower buff they get. And to tell you the truth, I started to like Demo, and now I won't play anything else, except on specific encounters.

    TL/DR version: Quit thinking like a Diva.

    /end rambling. It's late.

  7. #167

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    I don't really think wanting to be able to do my job better because I can't do any other jobs without spending weeks leveling a new character is "being a diva". I don't really QQ about it like some people do, though. I just feel the ideal state of the game would be for pures (as in, pure dps) to have some advantage over hybrids to make up for all the advantages hybrids have. For me to even find out what healing is like I need to either have a friend willing to let me try out their character (against the ToS anyway) or spend hundreds of hours of prep time just for the experience of level 80 healing. Meanwhile a feral cat can see what healing is like by spending hundreds of seconds looking up a build and respecing. And still do the same dps as me while feral. Does that really make sense? What do I bring to the table as a pure dps class to make up for the loss of ability to enjoy different roles?

    Again, not a QQ. I love my class. I have a lot of fun playing the game. I just wonder what tanking and healing are like and will never know because I can't stand old world questing all over again to find out. If I were a paladin or druid, I'd probably have just as much fun and certainly do just as much dps, but also be able to experience the other 2/3rds of the game without rehashing terrible old world quest design. Cataclysm redesigning old world to make the leveling experience FUN up to lvl 58 again may fix the whole issue for me. Right now just the thought of going through that grind again, even with +20% XP from heirlooms, is a big turnoff. So I have fun and enjoy the 1/3rd of the game open to me as a pure, and hope I'm not missing anything big in the other 2/3rds of the roles.

    Basically, for me, the whole "what if" scenario is what drives me nuts. What if I'd enjoy healing 3x as much as I enjoy dps? I'll never know! What if all I'd need to conquer burnout from time to time while waiting for a new tier would be to change roles for a while? I'll never know! Healers and tanks never have to wonder what it's like to dps; it's always just a respec away. Four classes will always just be wondering what it's like to do something OTHER than dps. And the reason that situation exists is that tanks and healers wanted to be heroes and Blizzard caved and let everyone dps equally. It sort of makes pures pointless. If I were starting the game up today, and I recommend this to anyone just now getting into WoW, I'd definitely roll a hybrid. There's no point being a pure, all you can do is one thing, and no better than the hybrids. Back when I chose mage it meant something. Now it just means giving up 2/3rds of the game from the first click.

  8. #168

  9. #169

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by SalcN
    I honestly dont like that they wanna make it idiotic f. ex. for paladins to wear Leather -- cause appereantly they dont know how to make good plate gear
    ^this

  10. #170

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Xentropy
    I don't really think wanting to be able to do my job better because I can't do any other jobs without spending weeks leveling a new character is "being a diva". I don't really QQ about it like some people do, though. I just feel the ideal state of the game would be for pures (as in, pure dps) to have some advantage over hybrids to make up for all the advantages hybrids have. For me to even find out what healing is like I need to either have a friend willing to let me try out their character (against the ToS anyway) or spend hundreds of hours of prep time just for the experience of level 80 healing. Meanwhile a feral cat can see what healing is like by spending hundreds of seconds looking up a build and respecing. And still do the same dps as me while feral. Does that really make sense? What do I bring to the table as a pure dps class to make up for the loss of ability to enjoy different roles?

    Again, not a QQ. I love my class. I have a lot of fun playing the game. I just wonder what tanking and healing are like and will never know because I can't stand old world questing all over again to find out. If I were a paladin or druid, I'd probably have just as much fun and certainly do just as much dps, but also be able to experience the other 2/3rds of the game without rehashing terrible old world quest design. Cataclysm redesigning old world to make the leveling experience FUN up to lvl 58 again may fix the whole issue for me. Right now just the thought of going through that grind again, even with +20% XP from heirlooms, is a big turnoff. So I have fun and enjoy the 1/3rd of the game open to me as a pure, and hope I'm not missing anything big in the other 2/3rds of the roles.

    Basically, for me, the whole "what if" scenario is what drives me nuts. What if I'd enjoy healing 3x as much as I enjoy dps? I'll never know! What if all I'd need to conquer burnout from time to time while waiting for a new tier would be to change roles for a while? I'll never know! Healers and tanks never have to wonder what it's like to dps; it's always just a respec away. Four classes will always just be wondering what it's like to do something OTHER than dps. And the reason that situation exists is that tanks and healers wanted to be heroes and Blizzard caved and let everyone dps equally. It sort of makes pures pointless. If I were starting the game up today, and I recommend this to anyone just now getting into WoW, I'd definitely roll a hybrid. There's no point being a pure, all you can do is one thing, and no better than the hybrids. Back when I chose mage it meant something. Now it just means giving up 2/3rds of the game from the first click.
    To be fair, you're falling into the 0.0000000001% of players that actually WANT to do more than damage as a DPS class.

    You've always had the option of playing another class. Nothing forces you to max one toon to 80 before leveling another alt.

    When I first started I went through three classes to 10 before deciding on one.

  11. #171

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Just an advice...

    As a hybrid class, you would be stuck in one tree. Let's say that's a DPS tree, and you've got most points spent in that tree, I think you would be able to focus all mastery points on that tree bonus whether you spend some points in another tree or not.

  12. #172

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by sanchez2673
    Mastery System Preview
    Originally Posted by Eyonix (Blue Tracker)

    This way, if you choose a talent like Elusiveness (which reduces your chance to be detected while stealthed)

    this again shows, that blizz has no clue what they are doing..

    Elusiveness (Rank 2)
    Reduces the cooldown of your Vanish and Blind abilities by 60 sec and your Cloak of Shadows ability by 30 sec.
    Or that you're being a douche. Either/or.

    If I were GC, I would trade the effects of Camouflage and Elusiveness just to mess with you, but then again I'm an asshole.

  13. #173

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    This makes me think putting every point in one spec might be better, or a hybrid build

  14. #174

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Gundim11
    This makes me think putting every point in one spec might be better, or a hybrid build
    They said they may cap the bonus at 51-55 points.

    Hybrid specs won't benefit from the lower-tier talents, and they also mentioned that they might only give you the bonus from your primary tree.

  15. #175

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Xentropy
    I don't really think wanting to be able to do my job better because I can't do any other jobs without spending weeks leveling a new character is "being a diva". I don't really QQ about it like some people do, though. I just feel the ideal state of the game would be for pures (as in, pure dps) to have some advantage over hybrids to make up for all the advantages hybrids have. For me to even find out what healing is like I need to either have a friend willing to let me try out their character (against the ToS anyway) or spend hundreds of hours of prep time just for the experience of level 80 healing. Meanwhile a feral cat can see what healing is like by spending hundreds of seconds looking up a build and respecing. And still do the same dps as me while feral. Does that really make sense? What do I bring to the table as a pure dps class to make up for the loss of ability to enjoy different roles?

    Again, not a QQ. I love my class. I have a lot of fun playing the game. I just wonder what tanking and healing are like and will never know because I can't stand old world questing all over again to find out. If I were a paladin or druid, I'd probably have just as much fun and certainly do just as much dps, but also be able to experience the other 2/3rds of the game without rehashing terrible old world quest design. Cataclysm redesigning old world to make the leveling experience FUN up to lvl 58 again may fix the whole issue for me. Right now just the thought of going through that grind again, even with +20% XP from heirlooms, is a big turnoff. So I have fun and enjoy the 1/3rd of the game open to me as a pure, and hope I'm not missing anything big in the other 2/3rds of the roles.

    Basically, for me, the whole "what if" scenario is what drives me nuts. What if I'd enjoy healing 3x as much as I enjoy dps? I'll never know! What if all I'd need to conquer burnout from time to time while waiting for a new tier would be to change roles for a while? I'll never know! Healers and tanks never have to wonder what it's like to dps; it's always just a respec away. Four classes will always just be wondering what it's like to do something OTHER than dps. And the reason that situation exists is that tanks and healers wanted to be heroes and Blizzard caved and let everyone dps equally. It sort of makes pures pointless. If I were starting the game up today, and I recommend this to anyone just now getting into WoW, I'd definitely roll a hybrid. There's no point being a pure, all you can do is one thing, and no better than the hybrids. Back when I chose mage it meant something. Now it just means giving up 2/3rds of the game from the first click.

    So you wanna screw the rest of the classes...... cause your to lazy to lvl another toon? Is that what Im getting from this? Im sorry my warrior can tank and dps if I want to. Well guess what.... I thought about that before I lvled him. Maybe you should have done the same I think.....

  16. #176

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    What about the AV mounts?

    brb [posessive noun] [noun] [verb] [preposition] [article] [noun]

  17. #177

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    PVP rogues will suffer greatest because other than Combat PVE tree, don't fully point in Assa/Sub. imo....alot of the talents in the bottom of those trees are just crap and filler.

    Blizz forgot the the true meaning of rogue, a class that should not have talents that are dependent of party/group/raid members actions, hence they are trash for PVP and rogues have no reason to point them

  18. #178

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    is the mastery stat a buff or a nerf?

  19. #179

    Re: Mastery System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthas
    is the mastery stat a buff or a nerf?
    We don't know. However, it's more likely that it's a buff at 80 but that it normalizes itself at 85 because everything there will be tuned to Mastery and the new stat system. In addition, Mastery will not exist on current level 80 gear, it will be added onto our gear as we get gear from levels 80-85.

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