Dreamwalker add management

[moode]

So we are beating our heads against this boss in both 10 and 25 man. Yeah yeah I know, Dreamwalker is srs bzns but we aren't even coming close. We have changed up the priorities for adds repeatedly and nothing seems to be working so here is my latest version of who needs to handle what adds.

Our problems are NOT related to healing. Our problem is we slowly lose a dps here and there and by the 4 minute mark we have on average 6 dps down and we get overrun with adds well before we should be. The best attempt we had ended with her around 80% healed, we had 3 healers coming out of the portals with about a 20 stack and it was over because our dps was all dead.

We lose them to zombies exploding in the raid, dps jumping on worms too early and pulilng aggro and dying, and by the end when we are short on dps a skeleton finishes us off with lay waste.


So here is the latest incarnation of our add management plan. Is there something blatantly wrong with this?

Skeletons
Melee DO NOT CHARGE TO THESE GUYS LET THEM COME TO YOU
Ranged target them ASAP and start burning them down.

Suppressors
Melee - if no skeleton then kick these guys asses.
Ranged - ignore unless there is nothing else up except aboms.

Mages -
Melee - If no skeletons or suppressors then get on her and interrupt every Frostbolt Volley, if you need to setup a rotation then do it but don't let them get that cast off. It's a freakin 3 second cast so there should be no excuses for this cast going off EVER.
Ranged - If no Skeletons then kill these

Zombies -
Melee - ignore them
Hunters - Hunters (1 on each side in 25) will kite these bastards around.
Ranged - If no skeletons or mages are up then kill them

Abominations
Melee - there better not be ONE other mob alive if you are hitting this guy
Ranged - see melee role

NOTE - IF YOU ARE TARGETTING AN ABOM WHEN HIS HP HITS 0 YOU ARE RESPONSIBILE FOR KILLING WORMS. Give the tanks a couple seconds to get aggro on them all. You are also responsible for letting the rest of the dps know you just killed an abom and worms are coming.

When worms spawn they take the #2 priority for ranged (and melee if they are already standing there) behind skeletons.

[venom1234]

We have the tanks grab everything.

I would charge the blazings asap. They don't really attack anything so pulling aggro is not a big deal. You can't let them get lay waste off. Always interrupt the frostbolt volleys. DPS pulling aggro on worms etc is their bad and they need to stop. We have 2 resto druids and a holy pally heal valithria so the druids can hot up so ppl as well with massive rejuvs.

The healers should be pulling 15k+ HPS or they aren't healing her enough. You should only be doing about 20 million raid damage by the time the fight is over (25m).

As fury I don't ignore any mobs. I hit everything ( assuming a tank has aggro). The priority system is the same as ours.

Usually the blazing ones do like 2 fireballs then lay waste. A lot of the time they don't even get a second fireball off.

[moode]

how many tanks do you use? we've only been using 2 and they were having trouble grabbing everything.

the reason we don't let melee charge the seletons is they always do that so early the ranged are not in LoS to help out. We split melee in two groups one on each side, each group has a tank. Ranged stay on her head and help where needed. From the head you can't target a skeleton if the melee charge and stop him around that wall sticking out.

We really don't have lay waste problems until we are down 5-6 dps. They rarely get any ticks off and never more than 1.

I guess our big issue is the dps getting in "panic mode" and they just tab to the nearest mob and start kicking his ass whether he is being tanked or not.

Wondering if we would be better off with 3 tanks to make sure more adds are under control.

[Ðuracell]

We use two tanks and three healers outside for 25 man. The tanks are a paladin and druid. And with three healers outside the dps don't even go below 90% >.> the fight is a joke now.

[xxAkirhaxx]

Your plan looks solid. Tell your dps to quit being bad. Have the hunters kite the zombies away from the raid, and tell the raid to stay away from zombies. Have your rogues tricks worms to the respective tank. Interrupt frost bolt volleys. Tanks ignore blazing skeletons completely.

edit: There should be no panic mode for the dps. They should be dpsing things in a set order and have assigned jobs for everything. If every dps does there job right, the fight is cake.

[Huntdanoobs]

What the melee is doing on skeletons is completely wrong. You want melee on them as soon as possible, and they won't kill any melee.

If you want an awesome tip to use that we found, was that if you have people constantly taunting the skelton it will start running back and forth and delay the time befroe lay waste will be casted.

[venom1234]

We use a bear and prot warr. They just sit in between the gates on either side. They grab everything from their side. DPS needs to never stop killing. There are always adds around. I will go to the other side to help at times if our side is slower. (Hence why every fury warr should get Heroic Fury!!! But that is a different story :P) Hunters on either side call out the priority. Blazings etc. The Supressors are usually cleaved down just in the mix of hitting other stuff. Our melee dpses the zombies and just run out at 20%. I even get hit by their aoe a lot but I think it only does like 8k or so on 25m.

Are the dps interrupting those frostbolt volleys? You would be surprised how that can hamper a raid if it gets off. The aoe damage plus the slow can make me useless if my Intercept/Heroic Fury are on cd.

The DPS may be getting into panic mode. They just have to always, always remember that priority system and it is even more important here to not pull aggro. The tanks don't have that massive threat lead like a single raid boss.

[Lilcheeks]

Yea dps dying early is due to lack of raid awareness and probably being careless with aoe near the rot worms or not knowing a zombie is about to explode nearby.

If you can last 5:30-6 minutes you should be able to get a kill(heal). We have 4 healers do portals, 2 stay out for raid heals. Our healers usually have 30+ stacks a little after the 5 minute mark so if that's not happening, they need work on what they are doing in there.

[Aabrahm]

Hunters kill/kite zombies
Lock Boomkin dots on zombies
Tanks pick up aboms, mages, and Skele's
If a Blazing skele is up, all dps kill skele, call out the side it spawns in vent (found that helps a lot for the situationally unaware)
AoE down bloodworms
If a skele is not up, kill surpressors
If surpressors are not up (and no skele), kill abom/mage/worms
Zombies should die quick as hell with hunters and dots
This has worked very well in both 10 and 25 man
You can substitue a dk for the hunter's kiting/kill job
Melee interrupt frostbolts (this is a must!)
Hope that helps

[moode]

What the melee is doing on skeletons is completely wrong. You want melee on them as soon as possible, and they won't kill any melee.

they aren't killing our melee directly, what is happening is, say a skeleton is coming from back right. half the melee (the group assigned on the right which would generally be 4 people) charge him immediately and he instantly stops.

Now he is still behind that wall and ranged can't get to him in time to keep him from casting lay waste. We found that if we let him come out from behind the wall before jumping on him we can kill him before he casts lay waste.

Maybe our ranged are in the wrong position (by the head). we thought about putting them right in the center of the room but then they can't see mana voids or the frost funnel things.

[venom1234]

Your problem is probably just the dps tunneling on mobs. They have to remember that priority order.

Find an opportune time to blow bloodlust/heroism. IE when the healers that are healing valithria are at 20 stacks or something.

[venom1234]

they aren't killing our melee directly, what is happening is, say a skeleton is coming from back right. half the melee (the group assigned on the right which would generally be 4 people) charge him immediately and he instantly stops.

Now he is still behind that wall and ranged can't get to him in time to keep him from casting lay waste. We found that if we let him come out from behind the wall before jumping on him we can kill him before he casts lay waste.

Maybe our ranged are in the wrong position (by the head). we thought about putting them right in the center of the room but then they can't see mana voids or the frost funnel things.

Maybe try not setting ppl in certain positions. You can just say you guys left side and you guys right side. Kill everything in that order. That is what we did. Oddly this isn't as easy of a fight as people make it out to be. We had 3 attempts total before we killed putricide and like 12 or so on her.

Edit: On my bloodlust comment earlier, usually doing it at that point also helps the dps because the adds start stacking up at that time.

[moode]

Find an opportune time to blow bloodlust/heroism. IE when the healers that are healing valithria are at 20 stacks or something.

we never really make it there. I think if we can get over the hump of losing 5-6 dps by the 4 minute mark (which seems to be about the time our healers are going over 20 stacks) then we would be in good shape.

Melee interrupt frostbolts (this is a must!)

I don't think we have stressed this enough. I am going to put one melee full time on interrupt duty to make sure this gets done.




Thanks for the replies. I was pretty sure I knew our issue just wanted to make sure it wasn't something wrong with the strat.

[Nujik]

Just a thought, you specified that your problem is NOT healing, but what makes you so sure?

I ask because while a lot/most of the raid damage is preventable, a great healing squad can keep everyone up. The very first time we encountered Valithria in 25man we got her down. Rotworms all over the place, frostbolt volleys going off, all melee on the zombies and getting hit by the acid burst, etc.. We still got it down. Now that we know the fight better, we're a lot better about avoiding unnecessary damage but it still happens. At least 25% of melee still gets hit by the acid burst from the exploding zombies (it doesn't really hit that hard). We have the tanks interrupting the frostbolts (we use 2 warrior tanks in 25m), but some still get off. DPS goes nuts on AOE'ing the rot worms so some get lost by the tanks. But it's still not a problem, because our healers are extremely good.

Not trying to brag, just trying to show an example of a different mindset. Yes, DPS should be smarter but mistakes do happen. Tanks should be awesome but sometimes an add gets away for a second or they miss an interrupt. No one is perfect. A great healing squad can keep people from biting it on those mistakes.

I have noticed that warrior tanks excel at this fight (I am one of them). Great mobility for all the adds, plus multiple stuns/interrupts to stop the archmages. So basically the DPS can just tunnel vision all they want and faceroll their way to victory.

We use 7 healers for this fight btw, not sure if that changes anything for you.

Nuj

[Ganoes]

"We lose them to zombies exploding in the raid, dps jumping on worms too early and pulilng aggro and dying, and by the end when we are short on dps a skeleton finishes us off with lay waste."

You know what your problem is then.

Zombies should be kited out of the raid. We had a wipe on 25 man last night where our hunter kited a zombie into the raid and killed both of our priests. After a nice yelling session by a hot tempered guild officer, that was cleared up nicely.

Same with worms. If they are attacking too quickly, they suck. Boot them from the guild if they persist in sucking because that means you are carrying people which will become too much of a burden if you are trying to down Arthas.

And yeah, Lay Waste will be a problem if it ticks more than, say, 2 times. That's usually a wipe.

My guild has 10 / 25 down and it took a bit of learning, but now it's free loot.

[anyaka21]

skeletons > supressors > aboms > zombies > archmages

everyone should have a target macro set up for blazing skeletons and switch as fast as possible. Supressors can be rooted, if not mistaken. Zombies need to be kited.

[Huntdanoobs]

skeletons > supressors > aboms > zombies > archmages

everyone should have a target macro set up for blazing skeletons and switch as fast as possible. Supressors can be rooted, if not mistaken. Zombies need to be kited.

No, it is skelelton>suppressors>archmages>aboms

That is for melee

Mages are a huge pain in the ass, and abom's pose no threat to the raid unless melee are retarded and stand in front of them. The only problem occurs when you start 2 abom are out at once.


Try having the melee tauntign the skelton everytime it is out. It will go to the players and bounce back and forth extendeding the time to dps them before they lay waste.

[Ganoes]

skeletons > supressors > aboms > zombies > archmages

everyone should have a target macro set up for blazing skeletons and switch as fast as possible. Supressors can be rooted, if not mistaken. Zombies need to be kited.

Incorrect.

Skeletons > Supressors > Zombies > Archmages > Aboms

Aboms are lowest priority always. ALWAYS.

[Nangz]

We do this with 3 tanks.

One just infront of the little lip area infront of the door. Pally who tanks the aboms and the rot worms.

Other 2 tanks are on the sides they kite the zombies and tank the mages.

Melee priority is- Mages (interupting too), supressors, aboms.

Ranged Priority is- Skellies, zombies.

For rot worms we just long tank them and our rule of thumb is. Only aoe them if you kill 2 things after the abom dies and they spawn. So like this for a melee. Abom dies>Mage dies>Supressors die> rot worms die.

Make sure ur ranged and melee know that swapping targets evne after only 5 secs of dps is not a bad thing.

For killing the skellies without getting any lay waste is a simple process.

Skellie Spawns (call out fast)
all ranged swap to it and open on it.
with a dk on each side one taunts then death grips it (just as a 2nd taunt)
that's 6 secs of time he'll be running towards the dk and when the taunts end he still will run back to the ranged with aggro.
Taunt will only work if he is casting nothing and or fireball.

[Pragmatic]

Heres how my guild does it.

Tanks - pick up aboms
Ranged - prio is on skeletons and supressors, if neither is around deal with the zombies which are kited around by hunters
Melee - Prio again on skeletons and supressors, if neither is up deal with archmages and aboms.

for all dps, if there are no adds up which they are set to deal with then ofc they can help out with others, the faster stuff goes down in this fight the better.

A special note, we set 1 rogue and 1 DK on either side of the room to interrupt the archmages frostbolt volleys this is their top priority even if a skeleton or supressor spawns, it may not seem like a big deal but its good practics for HC mode where the volleys also mana burn.

The trick was splitting up the dps evenly so were not running from 1 side to the other like headless chickens, and communication on vent was CRUCIAL. Calling out when each add had spawned meant people can quickly switch targets to whatever their top priority at the time is.
Also dps need to realise that if something with a higher priority spawns, they should immediately disengage the add they are currently dps'ing and switch to the new add.

e.g currently dps is on an archmage and a skeleton spawns, it doesnt matter if the archmage isnt dead just get your dps to switch to the skeleton IMMEDIATELY.

Also we tend to Bloodlust when the healers are around 30 stacks (i think!) im a mage so im not too sure on this but making sure they make the best use of BL is really important and can save you so much hassle.
Having a mage cast Amplify Magic on the boss really helps also.

Basically the key to this fight is organising your dps correctly and making sure they understand their specific roles, as soon as they get that, this fight is a walk in the park

hope this helped and good luck