Sub PvE: Is Backstab optimum rotation?

[Thesphinx]

Since I last checked, Sub rogues could only achieve their highest DPS by wielding slow/slow Fists/Swords/Maces and only using Hemo.

Has anything changed since then?

Mind you, Glyph of Backstab would add an extra 9 seconds to Rupture, should it become a part of rotation. This was included in the last count I believe, and yet fists were still the optimal way to go.

Also, is Blizzard basically done with sub changes for this minor patch or are they likely going to add a few more? I'm growing concerned that this patch is going to be released very very soon, and if that's the case it's unlikely to me that Sub will undergo any more changes. That would be a shame if it happens.

What do yall suppose?

[Separate]

Actually Sub is not viable at all so there is no optimal rotation. This is like a mage asking what to do if hes frost for pve.

[Bigglezworth]

Read this thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t38187-d...ec_necromancy/ Looks like using a fast dagger OH, and slow Axe MH with hemo is the way to go, then switching to a dagger MH for shadowdance. Shadowstep is used with rupture to keep it rolling with 20% extra damage. Mutilate or combat are preferable, but just in case your heart is set on playing sub that should help.

[K4ge]

Sub rogues [...]DPS

No.

[Feel The Power]

Sadly sub is the most fun to play of all the specs for pvp, I pray for the day it will rise again.

[Thesphinx]

Read this thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t38187-d...ec_necromancy/ Looks like using a fast dagger OH, and slow Axe MH with hemo is the way to go, then switching to a dagger MH for shadowdance. Shadowstep is used with rupture to keep it rolling with 20% extra damage. Mutilate or combat are preferable, but just in case your heart is set on playing sub that should help.

Thanks a bunch. What about my other question, about Sub still having more changes on the way? Are there more changes coming, or is Blizzard done with sub rogues for this minor patch?

[Crazhr]

It very much depends on how you calculate dps, rdps and personal dps and then it also very much depends on what you consider varible.

If viable is able to do as much dps as mut or combat then no sub is not viable. Even if you tot a top dps target spam hemo and calculate the +rdps from tot and hemo you are still going to be 700-1k dps behind mut and combat in any tank and spank fight.

If you want the most damage from sub then you need a pretty melee heavy raid, a top dps with no agrro problems and go slow axe/mace sword and spam hemo. On top of this you also need a crit heavy group and be ready to weapon swap for shadow dance.

The reason why you dont go back stap is because you need the short rupture to be able to shadowstep->rupture for more damage.

Now if we ever get an insane movement fight sub might be viable because of shadow step but even with all the movement on putricide mut or combat would still be better. So if you realy want to spec sub and dont care about max dps then its more viable after the patch BUT you should still know you are nerfing your damage and if you dont got atleast 2 parts t10, tot every cd, shadow step every rupture then you are nerfing your damage ALOT.


And to your last question about more changes? How the fuck should we know Its a fan site not a forum for clervoyants (how ever you spell that) trying to guess the future. My guess is that they are done but you never know the only thing you can be sure of is that if we see a change on the ptr its going to be on the front page.

[Thesphinx]

It very much depends on how you calculate dps, rdps and personal dps and then it also very much depends on what you consider varible.

If viable is able to do as much dps as mut or combat then no sub is not viable. Even if you tot a top dps target spam hemo and calculate the +rdps from tot and hemo you are still going to be 700-1k dps behind mut and combat in any tank and spank fight.

If you want the most damage from sub then you need a pretty melee heavy raid, a top dps with no agrro problems and go slow axe/mace sword and spam hemo. On top of this you also need a crit heavy group and be ready to weapon swap for shadow dance.

The reason why you dont go back stap is because you need the short rupture to be able to shadowstep->rupture for more damage.

Now if we ever get an insane movement fight sub might be viable because of shadow step but even with all the movement on putricide mut or combat would still be better. So if you realy want to spec sub and dont care about max dps then its more viable after the patch BUT you should still know you are nerfing your damage and if you dont got atleast 2 parts t10, tot every cd, shadow step every rupture then you are nerfing your damage ALOT.


And to your last question about more changes? How the fuck should we know Its a fan site not a forum for clervoyants (how ever you spell that) trying to guess the future. My guess is that they are done but you never know the only thing you can be sure of is that if we see a change on the ptr its going to be on the front page.

That was very helpful. There's a lot about Sub that's interesting, and the thing that I think could end up balancing it out for everyone is if they countered its over-usefulness in utility with the awkward positioning requirements of Backstab. Also, if Shadowstep has to be blown for Rupture every 20 seconds on the dime, then the utility of it goes away there too. In the end, Sub becomes just as powerful as all the other classes, at the expense of all of its useful utility. That is a rotation I'm willing to agree with.

I also liked how you pointed out Glyph of Backstab's weakness. I never actually considered that having Rupture longer than 20 seconds would not really be a DPS increase due to Shadowstep having to be put aside for too long.

And as for the thing about whether or not more changes are on the way, I'm a bit new to how the PTR works, and I was wondering when updates would stop coming. Does it mean anything that the updates are "slowing down" now? Does that mean there's a lot less likely to be any change? Or how about the fact that Rogues haven't had a significant change in quite some time now? Does anyone know the likelihood of more sub changes being passed in this minor patch?

I think that at this point Sub would dominate if Glyph of Backstab would be changed to allow Rupture to increase in damage by 5%, up to a maximum of 3 times.

[Deleted]

Actually Sub is not viable at all so there is no optimal rotation. This is like a mage asking what to do if hes frost for pve.

Frost for pve is "viable" now, sub isnt...

[Thesphinx]

Frost for pve is "viable" now, sub isnt...

Sub is close, I guess. I'm just wondering whether it looks like any more sub changes will make it through in time for the next minor patch. Does it look likely? Does anyone have a guess?

[UnbelievableExo]

I don't think Sub will be that bad of a choice, won't pass Com or Mut, but may be decent if someone takes the time to get used to it. It is getting some nice buffs. Shadowstep CD improving, damage buffs for Ghostly Strike and Hemorrhage, Serrated Blades % based ar pen instead of a set number, and Slaughter from the Shadows added damage. Only question I would have, what about slice and dice? Mut gets a reset from envenom, it gets more time from Com spec, a lot damage comes from it and it doesn't seem like Sub is going to get something to help with it.

[Bigglezworth]

I don't think Sub will be that bad of a choice, won't pass Com or Mut, but may be decent if someone takes the time to get used to it. It is getting some nice buffs. Shadowstep CD improving, damage buffs for Ghostly Strike and Hemorrhage, Serrated Blades % based ar pen instead of a set number, and Slaughter from the Shadows added damage. Only question I would have, what about slice and dice? Mut gets a reset from envenom, it gets more time from Com spec, a lot damage comes from it and it doesn't seem like Sub is going to get something to help with it.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#fhfbZ0gcZxbcdhGzdAzqMRt is the sub spec that is showing the most promise, which does include imp. slice and dice.

[Liquoid]

Sadly sub is the most fun to play of all the specs for pvp, I pray for the day it will rise again.

And this statement is relevant to a PvE discussion because... ?

[Nirual]

On top of this you also need a crit heavy group and be ready to weapon swap for shadow dance.

They are buffing the damage for hemo when using daggers a lot, which should lessen the need for weapon swapping, if not entirely eliminating it. And what kind of player doesn't crit a lot these days?

It still looks like a fairly complicated ordeal though, and the 2p10 kinda ruins part of the buffs (FT reducing the energy cost of TotT) for now.

[K4ge]

Slow axe/sword/mace outperforms mh dagger due to poison procc normalisation.