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  1. #21
    The Patient Iannis's Avatar
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    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    I've been using PW:S glyph for a while now.
    I dig the 3-4k (Depending on buffs) insta crit when casting bubble on someone...which then procs divine aegis.
    I know aegis from such a small heal isn't much, but hey its something.

    Recently I've been considering switching out flash heal for holy nova. I find myself enjoying holy nova in ICC10 a lot...
    And almost any 5man heroic can be healed completely by nova

    Haven't felt the need for PoH in any of ICC that i've seen so far. On the good Professor, I cast PoH maybe twice or whenever inner focus is up. I macro that to PoH.
    We have a good holy priest that handles aoe well. I mostly bubble and keep PoM bouncing around for that fight. Again I find Holy Nova to be fun and somewhat useful there.
    When running from orange to green, its just fun to pop a few off.

    On Festergut if I'm stacked with the melee group, Nova can be groovy too as a quick top off.



  2. #22

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    @Shockk: Look harder on 'top 100' Disc Priests. Many are taking the Shadow T10, many use purely off-set pieces. You also can't assume 'being in a top 100 guild' makes them one of the top 100 Priests worldwide. It just means their guild gets through hard content a few days before the next 1,000 or so guilds. Even then it doesn't get around that 2pT10 is only +11% healing to Flash Heal compared to Binding Heal producing much, much more healing.

    As far as Grace? You can only have Grace on a single target at a time and the only time it's important is when you'll have to be healing that target repeatedly. Grace is not a selling point on raid healing and, as mentioned, Penance will keep Grace up on a tank full time. Now, if you want to keep ignoring what I actually said that's fine, but you should actually look at what was actually being discussed. On 5 ICC fights you will always be taking damage. So again: The Flash Heal glyph helps on 0 fights in ICC, 10, or 25. PoH can help on 5 (6 HM) fights, especially in 10s.

  3. #23
    Fluffy Kitten llDemonll's Avatar
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    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    hi, you both are talking about something that isnt the PoH glyph.

    have your own discussion of binding heal in a new thread plz.

    that being said, i dont use PoH very often as disc. Yes there are fights that warrant it, such as marrowgar, festergut (sometimes...), maybe putricide, but for all those fights a normal raid healer can better top people off. my job as disc is to not let people die, and then top off when i can.
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  4. #24

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    Binding Heal vs Flash Heal is one of the reasons for the FH glyph being poor. That is why it was being discussed.

  5. #25

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    I think PoH extends a little further in usefulness than some people are letting on, at least for me, another good example would be the LK, if you are a group behind on your infest shielding a precast prayer is the best option, and the hot it leaves on can never hurt. That said, binding heal is situational the same way PoH is, FH is pervasive, guess it comes down to reglyph for each boss like was said previously .

    Personally I'm still leaning towards overall PoH will still be more useful, though its a fairly minor optimization issue in the end.

  6. #26

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    I find myself using PoH more and more to be honest. and I was really pondering on wether to get this glyph or not.

  7. #27

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    Yes, the discussion went a bit off-topic - this is my last post regarding BH vs FH.

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    On 5 ICC fights you will always be taking damage. So again: The Flash Heal glyph helps on 0 fights in ICC, 10, or 25. PoH can help on 5 (6 HM) fights, especially in 10s.
    So again: How does a glyph that further enhances our second most versatile direct healing spell "not help on any fight"? You save mana, which can be crucial sometimes. And the more hectic a fight becomes (e.g. you having to drop raid healing and massively supporting tank healing), the more this effect adds up.

    Regarding the Top100 priests: If things work for them and they manage to clear hard modes as the first people world wide, then what they're doing can't be that wrong, can it?

    I'm quite certain that we won't reach an agreement here. If BH works well for you - ok. Why not. I've tried using BH more frequently some time ago and found the spell neither appealing nor efficient enough (compared to FH) to warrant excessive use.

  8. #28

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shockk
    It's amazing what you seem to believe to have interpreted from my post. Disc priests are amazing raid healers, right, that's what PW:S is there for. It's beyond me why you argue to use a clearly inferior, non-talented, mana-consuming heal with situational usefulness every time you could use a Flash Heal.
    No - not every time you could use a FH - every time you could use a FH on a fight where 5% mana saved could possibly matter.

    This is a discussion about the glyphs- Harky's point (as I understand it), is that the glyph is only conceivably useful on fights were you shouldn't cast FH much anyway - because you will either prefer BH or PoH (Sindragosa, BQ) or PW:S.

    The glyph is only useful on heavy flash heal fights where you are also mana-stressed, but if a fight is FH heavy then you simply can't be mana stressed - ergo the glyph is entirely pointless.

    If you think that PW:S is an unequivocally superior raid healing tool to BH or PoH on Sindragosa or BQ then clearly you're somebody who believed his parses on twin valks.

  9. #29

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    This really is the last post in the off-topic part of the discussion, but I can't leave this post uncommented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    If you think that PW:S is an unequivocally superior raid healing tool to BH or PoH on Sindragosa or BQ then clearly you're somebody who believed his parses on twin valks.
    PW:S is the "unequivocally superior raid healing tool" for a discipline priest. You're not seriously arguing against this?

    BH and PoH have their uses and will be cast as well - when neccessary. The bulk of the healing throughput, however, will be done by PW:S. In every fight, be it BQL, Sindragosa, 10man or 25man.

    Feel free to show a combat log of yours where you delivered exceptional performance - without overly straining your mana and your healing buddies while using BH and PoH as your "superior raid healing tools".

  10. #30

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shockk
    Yes, the discussion went a bit off-topic - this is my last post regarding BH vs FH.

    So again: How does a glyph that further enhances our second most versatile direct healing spell "not help on any fight"? You save mana, which can be crucial sometimes. And the more hectic a fight becomes (e.g. you having to drop raid healing and massively supporting tank healing), the more this effect adds up.

    Regarding the Top100 priests: If things work for them and they manage to clear hard modes as the first people world wide, then what they're doing can't be that wrong, can it?

    I'm quite certain that we won't reach an agreement here. If BH works well for you - ok. Why not. I've tried using BH more frequently some time ago and found the spell neither appealing nor efficient enough (compared to FH) to warrant excessive use.
    There are situations where binding heal is more effective to use.
    An example is when you yourself have a mark of the fallent champion on saurfang hardmode.
    You should be casting binding heal instead of flash heal at that point to alleviate other healers having to worry about you.

  11. #31

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shockk
    PW:S is the "unequivocally superior raid healing tool" for a discipline priest. You're not seriously arguing against this?
    No, it isn't. It's Disc's best filler spell. A filler spell is a spell that is cast when your better options are unavailable. PW:S is a very strong instant spell. It's essentially an instant cast Greater Heal. That's nice and all, but if you're convinced that being an instant Greater Heal makes it your best tool, then you're wrong. Binding Heal, Penance and Prayer of Healing all have higher HPS than PW:S. The difference is that PW:S can be cast safely in some fights without the risk of overhealing. There are 5 fights in ICC (6 in HM) where this comes up. Three of these you can safely do it at any point, the other 2(3HM) you can do it for 1/4-2/3 of the fight. Here's a chart of when PW:S loses on 'healing' to other Priest spells on those fights:

    Flash Heal: Does not win
    Binding Heal: <20% overhealing (non-crit)
    Penance: <40% overhealing (non-crit)
    Prayer of Mending: Does not lose*
    Prayer of Healing: <65% overhealing w/BT (non-crit) -- <40% overhealing (non-crit)

    *: The minimum hit for the damage auras in ICC multiplied by PoH hits doesn't allow for enough overhealing for PW:S to be better.

    To clarify: Even if you only get 35% effective healing from PoH it will beat PW:S if you have BT. This is assuming you have around 650 haste. With more the number drops slightly because part of the gap is cast time. PW:S on many fights is the easiest spell to use. That does not make it superior to other tools when those tools can be used for maximum effect. We have 4 spells that can beat it. One that always beats it in some fights and two that are very easy to beat it with.

    It's exactly what Azyoulike said. Flash Heal is not useful on any fight where you will be mana stressed, but the glyph is only useful on fights where you will be mana stressed, so the glyph is never useful. PoH on the other hand is a flat increase to output when using a spell you should be using at times in ICC. Useful occasionally is much better than useful never.

  12. #32

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    No, it isn't. It's Disc's best filler spell. A filler spell is a spell that is cast when your better options are unavailable. PW:S is a very strong instant spell. It's essentially an instant cast Greater Heal. That's nice and all, but if you're convinced that being an instant Greater Heal makes it your best tool, then you're wrong. Binding Heal, Penance and Prayer of Healing all have higher HPS than PW:S. The difference is that PW:S can be cast safely in some fights without the risk of overhealing. There are 5 fights in ICC (6 in HM) where this comes up. Three of these you can safely do it at any point, the other 2(3HM) you can do it for 1/4-2/3 of the fight. Here's a chart of when PW:S loses on 'healing' to other Priest spells on those fights:

    This is wrong on so many levels.
    Power Word: Shield is always first priority.
    The ability to prevent damage is more effective than the ability to top people off.

  13. #33

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    So, let me see if I have this straight. Shielding one person for 7-9k is better than healing a person for 14-18k. Shielding one person for 7-9k is better than healing two people for 6k each. Shielding one person for 7-9k is better than healing five people for 3.5k each. Shielding one person for 7-9k is better than healing five people for 6k.

    So:
    9k shield > 14-18k heal
    9k shield > 12k heal
    9k shield > 17.5k heal
    9k shield > 30k heal

    Or, do you just not know how much your heals actually do in comparison to your shields?

  14. #34

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    On topic, I do actually (now) agree on the PoH glyph being of equal or even higher usefulness in many fights after checking how many FH I cast in the most hectic of fights (I'll probably change the glyph sometime soon) ... but that's not what we've been arguing about over the last couple of posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    9k shield > 14-18k heal
    9k shield > 12k heal
    9k shield > 17.5k heal
    9k shield > 30k heal
    Those are numbers your heals may, but not neccessarily will reach. Just as ofc the shield could persist 30 seconds without absorbing anything.

    - Penance has a cooldown
    - Binding Heal only is of situational usefulness
    - Prayer of Healing will never reach it's full potential (unless your other healers are asleep)

    PW:S, however:

    - doesn't interfere with other healer's efforts
    - will mostly likely absorb something over those 30 seconds
    - leaves a 15 second debuff that buffs your healing

    I do realize that there are different approaches to priest healing, since we're a pretty versatile class. Disc healing however, regardless of raid size or difficulty, comes down to massive amounts of shields with a bit of everything else in between - depending on the fight you're doing. If it doesn't, you're not delivering the performance you could or you're tasked with healing a situation a disc priest usually shouldn't be assigned to.

    Each and every log - be it Top100 guilds or highest listed priests on World of Logs - shows PW:S as the #1 source of healing done, for a good reason.

    This also mirrors my personal experience; I may not be the most hardcore or skilled of players, but our guild is doing quite well and we've never had trouble with healing - and I end up with the most healing done on pretty much every fight. This is nothing I take pride in - spamming bubbles isn't really that hard - but it reassures me that I'm taking a load of pressure from our other healers, and their feedback says so too.

  15. #35

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    Shockk, the point is people are arguing extremes. You can't claim PW:S is better in all situations than PoH, BH, PoM, Penance and even Flash Heal. You just can't. Thus while it is the best filler spell, it is not as you claimed, "...the "unequivocally superior raid healing tool" for a discipline priest." The reason for arguing about Binding Heal, Flash Heal and PoH is that if you accept that PW:S is superior to those heals, then your third glyph is a non-issue. If you do not accept that premise, then the third glyph is actually important. At that point you must look at the value of Flash Heal and Prayer of Healing. That's why Binding Heal comes up, because it has many uses that completely negate Flash Heal. Then you have to discuss mana savings of the Flash Heal glyph and finally you need to compare that to potential gains from Prayer of Healing. That's where the conclusion that PoH > FH comes from.

    This thread was never actually derailed, it was just more complex than some people would like to think the discussion ought to be. That's due to that original premise. If you think PW:S beats PoH, PoM, Penance, FH and BH in all situations then there's only one major glyph that matters: PW:S. However, because you have three slots you could then take the next best two just to fill in the slots. Penance is our big 51 pointer, so why not take it? Then it's FH/PoH and you get people saying that it doesn't matter. Why? Well, PoH is a pure raid heal and PW:S is better, right? So PoH is out. Then I guess we take FH because we cast FH sometimes on tanks.

    It's a fallacy, which is the issue. And we're right back to where we started and what you're now agreeing about: Glyph of Flash Heal is useless and provides mana regen in fights we do not need mana regen at all. Glyph of Prayer of Healing is only useful on a couple fights, but it is useful. That's right back to my original statement: Flash Heal is useful on 0 fights, PoH on 5(6HM). Something with limited use is always better than something that is entirely useless.

  16. #36

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    I finally understand where you come from harky.
    All you care about is HPS.

  17. #37

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    All I care about? No, but your HPS can not exceed incoming DPS. I value combined APS/HPS and do whatever I can to increase that number. Same goes for all our other healers. If we can pump out enough healing to convert a healer to DPS and make fights easier then we do it. Meters most certainly do matter and being higher on them is in fact a reflection of skill. If I was content with an 'everyone lived, boss died' philosophy I would be in a casual guild. I'm not.

  18. #38

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    Are you honestly going to argue over a cast time predict heal is going to be more efficient over a 12s duration 9-10k shield?
    a 3.5k group heal isnt going to save anyone.

  19. #39

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    Damn. I guess we should stop using CoH and PoH as Holy too then if those raid heals aren't worthwhile. Heck, maybe all Holy Priests should go back to FH specs while we're at it. Renew only ticks for around 3k every 3 seconds, what a piece of crap, that will never save anyone. 3.5k per target with PoH for a Priest in T10 is close to a 50% overheal and does not include the glyph. A full heal PoH cast with glyph is close to 8k non-crit per target. I was using heavy overheal figures to keep it within reason. There's only so much of a troll you can become before people get bored. Find the line and ride it, but the nonsense level is just way beyond that at this point.

  20. #40

    Re: PoH Glyph (Disc)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shockk
    PW:S, however:

    - doesn't interfere with other healer's efforts
    Except Resto Druids, Holy Priests using Renew as it's intended, and to a lesser extent Shaman (Riptide, and shields interfering with damage, thus the effectiveness of Chain Heal), and a Holy Paladin's glyph of Holy Light.

    So though it doesn't really affect the Holy Paladin's spell choice or actions (only their number) it actually has a real effect on every healer's efforts, in some way, shape or form, and in many cases quite severely. But of course, anyone arguing with it must be this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Revitalize
    All you care about is HPS.
    Wait, wasn't that the reason to include absorbs in a Recount mod, Skada, and WoL, as well as bragging at 12k+ HPS on Valky'rs? Seriously.

    And harky, we can't go back to Flash Heal specs, because then we're Paladin-lite. Renew specs are Druid-lite. So Holy Priests just need to be removed from the game, make things easier?

    Edit: I just really really hate the Double Standard, and how "high and mighty" people tend to view the spec.
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