1. #1

    Maximum single target throughput rotation as holy?

    Title kinda says it all, am curious what maximum throughput is, assuming max talents, using serendipity stacks in what way...

  2. #2

    Re: Maximum single target throughput as holy?

    If you're looking at single target, Serendipity is not the way to go. Greater Heal is more HPS than slowing your HPS three times through Flash Heal to pick up a hasted Greater.

    Depending on Spellpower, Renew may not be worth casting either, everything else is just out of the question (well, except wings, but hey...).

    So, pick up all your Greater Heal talents, and give it a shot.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Maximum single target throughput rotation as holy?

    I'm not sure I agree with that anymore Kelesti. I just ran some quick numbers assuming 5/5 DF, 3/3 Serendipity, 5/5 EH, 0/2 SoL, and 2pT10 (modelled as a flat 10.89% increase on FH for simplicity's sake). I ignored all the multiplier talents to simplify my math and also ignored Crit and Haste since they should all scale at the same rate with both spells. I'm seeing ~8.3% more HPS with FHx3>GH than with GH spam at 4k SP.

    Regarding Renew, it scales well with SP but doesn't scale well with Crit and Haste, so I'd be more inclined to say that Renew may not be worth casting if your SP is low and your Crit/Haste are relatively high. I'm loathe to run the numbers on it since it's roughly 2x the HPET of FH at 4k SP, so I'd have a hard time imagining that Haste and Crit can make up that much of a difference.

    Finally, I think PoM is worth mentioning as well. In a situation where you will only get one proc out of it because it will likely bounce to a pet and sit there, it wouldn't be worth casting. In a situation where the tank is reasonably likely to get a second proc, it will increase your HPS. If you're really fortunate, it can proc on him 3x and then it's actually the best HPET you can get on a single target. Of course, determining whether or not it's worth casting purely for single target throughput, ignoring healing it does elsewhere, becomes an exercise in probability, so I'd say it probably would increase your single target HPS in a Patchwerk or Blood-Queen type multi-tank fight (reasonable probability of bouncing back and forth between just the tanks), but would probably lower your HPS on a Twin Val'kyr or Festergut type fight (much more likely to bounce out into the raid).

  4. #4

    Re: Maximum single target throughput rotation as holy?

    I think one of the main concerns conidering Holy throughput is your raid healing makeup. For example, my guild runs (for 25's) 2-3 druids, 2-3 priests, 1 holy pally, with a total of 6 healers, we go with 7 for dreamwalker. Also this past week we went with 5 heals for majority of our run, with great success. Now, with teh amount of druids and priests that we bring, there are so many hots rolling on the raid that i very rarely cast anything at all. My rotation isnt so much of a rotation but more of a priority. I keep mending on CD( casted on tanks) Coh on CD (granted that there is a need for it, meaning that AOE dmg has occured) and in between I cast 2-3 renews on people that i know will be taking dmg, mainly tanks. With this rotation im am purely rolling off of GCD's, and i have started trying to get more haste while my crit is ~30-35% with holy and im at 4000 SP in a 25 man setting. With this priority rotation i usually ALWAYS have up SoL which is for clutch situations, this instant flash heals for ~ 7k and has the 33% chance to apply a hot due to 2pt10. This is extremly useful for people that get spiked or also for tanks. I use the SoL proc instead of a renew in between my Coh and PoM CD's. Also, this stacks up serendipicty quite nicely for another cluth PoH (very rarely do i ever cast this, its more for a preemptive heal to land after large AoE dmg to a specific group, I.E. melee on gormok while he is casting his AoE Silence/stomp) or for a GH ( not as rare as PoH but still rare) that i have available as a large heal to a tank, and tank only, which is good for say, Festergut once the boss has 2-3 Stacks of his dmg buff.

    Going back to my original point, this is very high throughput for me because of my raid makeup. Druids are so powerful raid healers due to their ability to have rejuv on so many poeple i find it better to just add my own hot to people with renew and my SoL procs for those who get spiked. If your raid doesnt have as many druids then you probably will cast Flash and PoH more . So ask yourself not so much whats the BEST holy throughput rotation as whats the best strategy for your own healing make up for the raid.

  5. #5

    Re: Maximum single target throughput rotation as holy?

    Get DrDamage and use it in game to track the HPS on your heals. It updates realtime so you can even test your serendipity, as well as seeing how renew scales.

    You can do this IN a raid with raid buffs, it also tracks glyphs, set bonuses, etc - everything that affects your spells is taken into account pretty much. (I think even boss specific buffs work)

  6. #6

    Re: Maximum single target throughput rotation as holy?

    yea, i thought maybe someone would have done the math already, having some fun on valith.

    Sitting here unbuffed my
    Flash heal is 6217.5 HPS, G-heal is 6834.7 HPS
    1Serendipity G-heal is 7768.4 HPS
    2Serendipity G-heal is 8992 HPS
    3Serendipity G-heal is 10680.9 HPS

    Unbuffed renew(for me, only 2 points empowered this build) is 9475.9 HPS, renews co-efficients and scaling with spell power are too good to drop it.

  7. #7
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    Re: Maximum single target throughput rotation as holy?

    The math isn't quite that simple. You have to count the casts of FH it takes to stack Serendipity as well because you have to restack it each time. Thus, while GH has more HPS than FH, and more stacks of Serendipity make the HPS on FH even better, you have to cast more FHs to achieve that higher level of HPS, so it brings down the HPS. Using the numbers you provided and normalizing to include the FH casts to build up the buffs, you'd get numbers more like this:

    FH: 6217.5
    GH: 6834.7
    FHx1>GH: 7138.6 (1.5*FH+2.5*GH)/(1.5+2.2)
    FHx2>GH: 7293.7 (2*1.5*FH+2.5*GH)/(2*1.5+1.9)
    FHx3>GH: 7387.8 (3*1.5*FH+2.5*GH)/(3*1.5+1.6)

    That's an 8.1% HPS difference between GH spam and FHx3>GH, which is right in line with the numbers I ran earlier.

  8. #8

    Re: Maximum single target throughput rotation as holy?

    Zeuq, keep in mind that part of the issue is actually the way the HPS comes. Yes, 1-3x FH > GH is higher HPS overall than just spammed GH, but that's only as an overall figure. You're actually doing 6.2k HPS 73% of the time and then 10.6k 23% of the time. Overall it's a gain (it didn't used to be, but it is now), but it's often not the best route to ensure a tank will live. It's basically useful for Dreamwalker and nothing else. It also assumes no SoL, which reduces the FH HPS by quite a bit. It would depend on your critrate to see if it's more than a 500 HPS loss. With 2/2 SoL it certainly would be, but with 1/2 I'm not sure. Now, with 0/2 it's a non-issue, but good luck convincing anyone.

  9. #9

    Re: Maximum single target throughput rotation as holy?

    SoL is still on the GCD so its effectively lower HPS on VDW (because of noncrit)

  10. #10

    Re: Maximum single target throughput rotation as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Zeuq, keep in mind that part of the issue is actually the way the HPS comes. Yes, 1-3x FH > GH is higher HPS overall than just spammed GH, but that's only as an overall figure. You're actually doing 6.2k HPS 73% of the time and then 10.6k 23% of the time. Overall it's a gain (it didn't used to be, but it is now), but it's often not the best route to ensure a tank will live. It's basically useful for Dreamwalker and nothing else. It also assumes no SoL, which reduces the FH HPS by quite a bit. It would depend on your critrate to see if it's more than a 500 HPS loss. With 2/2 SoL it certainly would be, but with 1/2 I'm not sure. Now, with 0/2 it's a non-issue, but good luck convincing anyone.
    I understand you right when you recomment 3xSerindipity->GH on Dreamwalker here, right?

    At our first attempts there I did rather poor regarding hps, and was asked why I did not just spam GH instead... I tried that, and my hps increased significantly. But I guess that must have been due to other factors. I was checking out the 600 highest ranked healers on that fight on worldoflogs, and there are 4 (!) priests on that list. The first one (ranked 402nd) was actually only spamming flash heal, while the 3 others (459th, 506th and 584th) were stacking serindipity -> GH. Is the fact that a FH spam cycle ends up being highest in this data set a coincidence?

    I glyph GH for this fight (allowing me to use it at pull and after 1st, 3rd, 5th etc portal), does that affect how you should do this fight (eg. just spam GH when GS is up)? I still find my hps low compared to those on the ranked list, how many clouds should each healer be able to soak in each portal (I usually eat 5-6, but is that too few to get the stack high enough, fast enough)?

    Sorry about this getting a bit too boss-specific, and maybe not contributing at all to the OP's subject...

    edit: After studying the logs in detail, I see that the ranked healers often get close to 200 stacks... Usually I am not anywhere near that, and neither is the other healers we have inside. We usually go with 3-4 healers. I'd guess that we're around 35-40 stacks each near the end. We usually assign one corner of the room for each healer. Are we doing this completely wrong?

  11. #11

    Re: Maximum single target throughput rotation as holy?

    Yep, being a top healing on Dreamwalker is all about stacks. You can do a shitty job, but get a ton of stacks and do an amazing amount of healing. It's quite possible that when you did poorly you just didn't get quite as many stacks as the other attempt. I know I've seen our Paladins come in at something lame like 15k HPS because they slipped up and dropped stacks. Then I've seen one of our dual-spec Paladins who is geared for FoL come in at 25k even though his healing style is crappy, just because he was able to get a ton of stacks.

    Don't ever plan on beating a decent Paladin in a good group though. Everyone will stand close enough for the HL glyph to splash on to them and the Paladin will be landing what is essentially a cooldown-free CoH for 10-20k per target. :P

    I am confused though. There is no GH glyph. You mean GS? If so then yeah, you should be for every fight anyway and using it when appropriate (in this case whenever the debuff on her isn't up).

  12. #12

    Re: Maximum single target throughput rotation as holy?

    Yeah I meant GS glyph

    Well, it is obvious that keeping the stack high is A-Z here, and that is what we aim for as well... But we still dont get more than 40-ish stacks, so my question was rather "what are we doing wrong?", when I see those on ranked lists getting 100-200 stacks...

  13. #13

    Re: Maximum single target throughput rotation as holy?

    The people getting ridiculous numbers of stacks are probably duo or solo healing, that's why.

  14. #14

    Re: Maximum single target throughput rotation as holy?

    Are your healers treating the stacks as competition, or are they sharing them? The first thing your healers should do when entering the dream-phase is to group together and move together so that they all get stacks at once. That allows them all the benefit of getting as many as possible per phase. If you split up you'll always be a bit more limited in how many you can get. If you're coordinated you can all get quite a few more. That said, seeing 200 is a bug, the buff stacks up to 100. Best I've done was on my Paladin getting 78, at which point HL was critting for up to 170k.

  15. #15
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    Re: Maximum single target throughput rotation as holy?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Zeuq, keep in mind that part of the issue is actually the way the HPS comes. Yes, 1-3x FH > GH is higher HPS overall than just spammed GH, but that's only as an overall figure. You're actually doing 6.2k HPS 73% of the time and then 10.6k 23% of the time. Overall it's a gain (it didn't used to be, but it is now), but it's often not the best route to ensure a tank will live. It's basically useful for Dreamwalker and nothing else. It also assumes no SoL, which reduces the FH HPS by quite a bit. It would depend on your critrate to see if it's more than a 500 HPS loss. With 2/2 SoL it certainly would be, but with 1/2 I'm not sure. Now, with 0/2 it's a non-issue, but good luck convincing anyone.
    Agreed. I was mostly treating this as a mathetmatical exercise rather than as an actual recommendation for how to tank heal because it would require some uncommon spec choices. The only place this sort of math is any bit meaningful is, as you mention, on Dreamwalker where one can more or less mindlessly spam a max single target rotation. Otherwise, I'd generally suggest sticking to more of a FH spam for tank healing and saving Serendipity stacks for helping to manage burst damage.

    Either way, I think this sort of math is mostly goes to show just how poor our tank healing ability is. I'm not sure what axxey's gear level is, but considering I often see Pallies to eHPS at the level of the pure HPS of a FHx3>GH rotation, it shows just how far behind we really are.

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