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  1. #21

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    What kreth posted is 99% true, only thing is tho I don't think its possible to taunt at 2 stacks of impale, the other tank will still have his stacks up when he taunts it back.

    And also, your dps is really low, with the gear available from badges now your guild should easily be able to put out more without too much farming.
    <;~~~~{] -____- )|:-~=(}

  2. #22

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    Honestly, everyone should install DBM. It will tell everyone pretty much everything they need to do (Except kill snobolds :P) It will help sooooo much. I remember the first time I did twins i didn't have a clue what to do, well i had a general idea, but i just followed the BIG BLUE WORDS!! that flashed up on my screen and i did fine!

    Good luck to you guys though, i still join pugs with idiots who think since they have 4pc t9 they can stomp through ToC10 and fail miserably at the first attempt. Im actually glad beasts is first b/c its a good common sense check.
    "Cat in the wall, eh? Ok, now you're talking my language. I know this game."

  3. #23
    Brewmaster Xuany's Avatar
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    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    God I hope the OPs trollin. Other than that... I have no advice. :-\

  4. #24

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    First off, yes, sadly im talking about normal mode ToC. Yes taunts were happening at 3 stacks of impale on gormok. Yes I've read up on strategies. I know what people are supposed to be doing. I've reiterated this to people , and things just weren't happening.

    As to our healers, Both original were very well geared for ToC, and the paly tank healing I know to be a tremendous player who is in our guild because he likes the family atmosphere, he could easily be in a serious raiding guild, he most definatley does not suck. The other (disc priest) is a good healer, but she is just getting used to her specs, and what she's comfortable with atm it bubbling the raid and throwing out raid heals, which is fine, that's what her spec was designed for. The problem was snobolds getting on healers and severely limiting their healing potential. The pally we brought in as the third was also a really good player, in decent gear for ToC 10.

    The DPS was overall from NR beasts, and I know on Patchwerk type fights, most of these people are doing 4-5k easily in a 10 man, but targeting snobolds etc is hurting their DPS.

    For the worms the problem seemed to be that only the OT was getting burning bile, so when I as the MT got paralytic toxin, i couldn't run over to him (the DPS were just running to the OT on dreadscale).

    I'm confident in our raid team and I see allot of potential in them. For people saying to drop the guild, that's an option for me, but I like our guild, we have the potential there, we're just having problems with execution. Allot of our raid team are family type people, we have a few moms, a few dads, etc who got into the game to have fun, and are just starting to raid. Everyone in there had decent gear and I know are decent players, we were just having problems with that fight and I was hoping for suggestions, not "omg, you can't do that, you guys suck", if that's your attitude, please don't post on this thread.

    I have ranged using a /tar sno macro. and having snobolds being a priority for ranged.

    Thank you for any helpful advice.

    Oh, and as to the gunship battle/lady thing, it was a scheduling conflict, we lost healers due to RL commitments, it's not that we couldn't do it.

  5. #25

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hergen
    Im actually glad beasts is first b/c its a good common sense check.
    A giant yeti is running towards you, what do you do? :P

    It basically is a common sense check, though when you throw 2K DPS into the mix, it doesn't work out very well.
    The future belongs not to those who wait...

  6. #26

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrrandion
    The problem was snobolds getting on healers and severely limiting their healing potential. The pally we brought in as the third was also a really good player, in decent gear for ToC 10.
    DPS should be handing the snobolds their asses. If they are not then the dps is failing miserably.
    The DPS was overall from NR beasts, and I know on Patchwerk type fights, most of these people are doing 4-5k easily in a 10 man, but targeting snobolds etc is hurting their DPS.
    Nah, not really. sure, it is not patchwerk, but it does not require all that much movement. I don't see huge dps losses do to downing the adds when I run ToC.

    For the worms the problem seemed to be that only the OT was getting burning bile, so when I as the MT got paralytic toxin, i couldn't run over to him (the DPS were just running to the OT on dreadscale).
    Yup, the OT almost always has BB and people need to run to him to remove the toxin.

    Basically, it seems that they are just rather inept. 2k-2.5k dps is atrocious and unacceptable. If that is the best they can do then they are not ready for ToC let alone ICC. If people are not killing adds, not moving out of fires, not getting away from the yeti's charge then they will never get through any progression content in ICC (I don't consider the first wing progression anymore, though I suppose that is a relative term. The first wing is cake). I don't mean to sound elitist, it just seems like they aren't very good.

  7. #27

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrrandion
    First off, yes, sadly im talking about normal mode ToC. Yes taunts were happening at 3 stacks of impale on gormok. Yes I've read up on strategies. I know what people are supposed to be doing. I've reiterated this to people , and things just weren't happening.

    As to our healers, Both original were very well geared for ToC, and the paly tank healing I know to be a tremendous player who is in our guild because he likes the family atmosphere, he could easily be in a serious raiding guild, he most definatley does not suck. The other (disc priest) is a good healer, but she is just getting used to her specs, and what she's comfortable with atm it bubbling the raid and throwing out raid heals, which is fine, that's what her spec was designed for. The problem was snobolds getting on healers and severely limiting their healing potential. The pally we brought in as the third was also a really good player, in decent gear for ToC 10.

    The DPS was overall from NR beasts, and I know on Patchwerk type fights, most of these people are doing 4-5k easily in a 10 man, but targeting snobolds etc is hurting their DPS.

    For the worms the problem seemed to be that only the OT was getting burning bile, so when I as the MT got paralytic toxin, i couldn't run over to him (the DPS were just running to the OT on dreadscale).

    I'm confident in our raid team and I see allot of potential in them. For people saying to drop the guild, that's an option for me, but I like our guild, we have the potential there, we're just having problems with execution. Allot of our raid team are family type people, we have a few moms, a few dads, etc who got into the game to have fun, and are just starting to raid. Everyone in there had decent gear and I know are decent players, we were just having problems with that fight and I was hoping for suggestions, not "omg, you can't do that, you guys suck", if that's your attitude, please don't post on this thread.

    I have ranged using a /tar sno macro. and having snobolds being a priority for ranged.

    Thank you for any helpful advice.

    Oh, and as to the gunship battle/lady thing, it was a scheduling conflict, we lost healers due to RL commitments, it's not that we couldn't do it.
    Alright, your big mistake there is that your MT CAN run to the OT with burning bile. You just don't want to run to him while Acidmaw is about to spew. Just run over immediately after a spew, or have the OT run over immediately after a spew on his side. And really, there's nothing wrong with being casual, but a little common sense at getting better can go a very long way. Has everybody read the tactics, do people know what they're -supposed- to do? The whole 'moms and dads and workin' people' excuse really isn't an excuse, because my guild is full of those types, and.. well, we've never really had this problem that you seem to be running into. Also, EVERYBODY should switch to snobolds, not just the ranged. Anybody that has a snobold should be running into the melee.

    If this is everybody's first time in ToC, I can understand Beasts being at least a bit difficult to get a grasp on. But it's very simple content, especially on 10-man. Your dps should be doing better dps, and your healers shouldn't be having trouble healing the impale stacks, assuming your tanks are actually taunting at the right times. Tell your dps to study their rotations and figure out how to do better, or you're simply not going to get farther.

  8. #28

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    Try having folks use the V-targeting for WoW, you can actually SEE the critters jump from him into the player with that, and from there its just a snap onto the add and kill it down with no movment, if you have trouble killing it have the player run in closer to everyone, if its a healer though don't get in range of the aoe Gorm' does.

    As for the worms the debuffs they place are dependant on their current state, the stationary one will debuff people at random (Have people SPREAD OUT!) As for the one that is moving it will always debuff it's tank.

    When a raid member gets the Toxin in the beginning, he can run to the Burning tank as long as he is careful to not run into the cone aoe. When I was in ToC we actually had our tank run to the people who were debuffed sometimes if he wasn't really doing anything, just be careful not to place a cloud to close to where people are standing.

    When the worms change then and the tank is only getting the Toxin its basically easy enough to have a chosen person who gets the burning bile to run to him, minding the aoe spew.

    Also, I personally enjoy to use Bloodlust at the very beginning of the worms comming up cause killing Acidmaw makes the entire phase trivial.
    The future belongs not to those who wait...

  9. #29

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrrandion

    For the worms the problem seemed to be that only the OT was getting burning bile, so when I as the MT got paralytic toxin, i couldn't run over to him (the DPS were just running to the OT on dreadscale).

    I'm confident in our raid team and I see allot of potential in them. For people saying to drop the guild, that's an option for me, but I like our guild, we have the potential there, we're just having problems with execution. Allot of our raid team are family type people, we have a few moms, a few dads, etc who got into the game to have fun, and are just starting to raid. Everyone in there had decent gear and I know are decent players, we were just having problems with that fight and I was hoping for suggestions, not "omg, you can't do that, you guys suck", if that's your attitude, please don't post on this thread.
    1. Snobolds problem - have whoever is getting the snobold, run to Gormock's ass and then melee can easily turn around and dps them aswell as ranged. They should go down in > 5 secs at least.

    2. First round of worms (right when they come out)- Ok you say you are on Acidmaw (who does paralytic poison) right? and the OT is on Dreadscale (who does Burning Bile). Ok ONLY the OT should be getting Burning Bile the first round (before they burrow). If Acidmaw spits on you (the MT), then the OT HAS to run to you and get the poison off you! If Acidmaw spits on the ranged/melee, they ALL have to run to the OT. The worms should ideally last only 1 burrow phase with both of them alive still. Acidmaw should die shortly after they come up from the first borrow. Then you just burn down Dreadscale. Make sure to spread out when Dreadscale is the only left still alive. If too many people get Burning Bile, then there will be wayyyy too much raid damage for your healers to handle.

    3. As with your raiders - Thats awesome that you have family oriented people in your group, but if you (as a raid leader) want to actually clear ToC10 then you need to make sure all your raiders are on the same page. If they don't mind wiping over and over and the first bosses and they are still having fun then the more power to them. But if you want the group to progress, then you need to tell them that and fix the problems. Get everyone on the same page.
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  10. #30
    Deleted

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    Basically, while both worms are up, the OT is the only person gaurenteed to ahve burning bile and able to remove paralytic toxin. If the other tank gets the toxin, it requires good communitcation for all dps to mvoe out the way while you shift over the other other tank and free him. if they dont, theyre gonna get cleaved/breathed on.
    Worms is the hardest phase, but its like your guild has never raided before. Pally and disc priest is not a good 2-combo for progressing, iI you are truely having problems, switch to 3, either a shammy or druid. Preferably shammy, sounds like you need the heroism/bloodlust.

  11. #31

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    While this has been said a few times, just to reinforce: the DPS is low. DPS doesn't fall from 4-5k to 2k on Beasts. Melee might drop off a little bit on snobolds(but come on, not really it takes two seconds to run to someone and then back), it's entirely possible to have just the ranged do it and their DPS should be pretty much unaffected by the snobold stage (takes two seconds to click the nameplate [highly recommend having nameplates turned on] and take them down).

    The worms have been covered pretty extensively, just manage the toxins/biles and remember that the first bile will always be cast on the tank tanking him so people know exactly who to run to the first time.

    As for Icehowl, he's the easiest of the 3, I've done him with only 4 or so people still up. To note for him, when he pins the raid against the wall, you can run straight through him if he's going for you(as in, you don't have to run sideways) - As a suicidal warlock I've tested this and it works fine p:

  12. #32

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    Inspected some of your 80's, dont know if its the people you play with. But they are listed as guildrank 1 on armory.
    Gemming on gear is wrong, most of the people seems quite undergeared, and\or they are using PvP\PvE gear mix.

    So i guess more HC farming, read up on your class\role. IF they want to progress.
    Raiding is not supposed to be easy, even if you outgear the Instance. You still need to know how stuff works.

  13. #33

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    Hmm...

    Well, Beasts, are possibly the hardest fight in the instance. There is a lot going on, and three different bosses in one fight. Took a while for my guild to pick it up at first. Even these days, if we all aren't concentrating properly, things get veyr hairy, or we wipe.

    Our guild isn't hardcore or anything, we are doing quite nicely, progressing steadily in ICC.

    What advice could I give you? Raid leader to raid leader.

    1. Firstly. Your DPS need to up their game a bit. I know melee kinda get screwed on Beasts, but they should still be pulling more. You have three range classes, Shammy and Hunter both should have some nice burst, and it's shouldn't be too painfull DPS wise for any of them to switch to snowbolds. Ask them for more DPS.

    2. Healers. 2 Holy pallies and a Disc Priest? Thats a pretty bad combo mate. I'd only ever have 1 Holy pally in a ten man raid. Try see if you can get a tree or a Shammy. If your DPS get out of fire quickly enough, there should be pretty minimal raid damage, and it is all about healing the CURRENT target of the boss. Gormok doesn't cleave, so a pally is a little wasted even on Gormok.

    3. Tactics. Ensure your raid is 100% sure they understand what you want from them. If any are unclear, make sure they tell you so you can explain further. I'd rather spend 10 mins explaining, then 10 mins wiping. Make sure as a raid leader you have absolute knowledge of every encounter you attempt.

    4. Leading. Be vocal. Very vocal. It can be difficult to lead a raid when all you can see is Gormoks foot. Keep an eye on DBM, make sure you remind people about abilities... Use the command. /DBM VERSION to ensure your raid all has it installed. I carry a no DBM/Pallypower/omen/vent, no raid policy. Make sure your whole raid is on ventrilo, they don;t have to speak neccesarily, but they need to be able to hear you. Don't allow slackers. Make sure everyone is gemmed and enchanted properly, and have brought flasks. If people are low on DPS, or you thought a healer is doing things wrong etc, call them up on it. Don't allow for excuses. You say you have three raid leaders? Surely not at the same time? If so, ask the other 2 to keep quiet and let you lead. If a raid has too many leaders it causes far more problems then it solves...

    I hate to patronise you, it isn't my intention. I'm not going to teach you to suck eggs. Maybe your new to raid leading?

    How we do (did) Beasts. We still do it on HC now and then for fun...

    Gormok

    Tank taunt rotation on 3 stacks. OT taunts of main tank when he gets three stacks. When the MT stacks have fallen of, he taunts of OT. (this will be timed so that the OT should have three stacks too.) Ensure DPS are switching to Snowbolds as and when they arrive, particulaly if they attach to a healer. If the others are struggling during this, ask the Ele shammy to throw a few heals if you feel it is needed. Have people go to Gormoks arse when they are being humped, so Melee incidentle AoE can help with them. Make sure as healers, you stay well out of range of Gormoks Staggering Stomp. GET OUT OF FIRE!!!!!!

    Acidmaw/Dreadscale

    Have both tanks stand near the gate, taunt both and turn them around so neither snake is facing the raid. Try and keep the snakes close to help with Paralytic Toxin. the raid should stay spread out so not too many are hit with the toxin at once. Nuke Acidmaw down first to take away the Paralysis mechanic. When members get toxin, they run to Dreadscales tank ASAP to get cure. When snakes submerge, try and have your tanks follow the dust so they can pick them both back up when they come back up. At no point should a raid member who is not the tank be stood infront of either snake. The snake that is on the surface will leave green rings, a la Grobbulus, so ove the snake a little if needed. When Acidmaw dies, Dreadscale will enrage, so make sure you nuke heal his tank while the DP finish him off. Make sure your raid stays spred out at all times. If people get burning bile, have them move away from the raid.

    Icehowl.

    A simple brun phase fight. Tank him in the centre of the room if you can. Keep the raid spread out as much as possible. Try not to have your healers standing close together. He will so a frost breath conal attack that will freeze players, and he will thrash and throw melee and tanks about a bit. Now and then he will do Massive Crash and everyone will be thrown to the walls. He will target a random member and charge at them. Everyone runs away, and he will be stunned by the wall. He takes double damage at this time, so have all DPS and tanks nuking, (even healers, mana allowing ofc) Repeat.

    Alot to take in, takes a little practise but you'll get there.

    I wish you best of luck, and let us know how you get on!
    Quote Originally Posted by Spritely View Post
    That said, I'm going to bed. Having a conversation in this context with someone with an avatar alluding to heroine use is just odd.

  14. #34

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrrandion

    The DPS was overall from NR beasts, and I know on Patchwerk type fights, most of these people are doing 4-5k easily in a 10 man, but targeting snobolds etc is hurting their DPS.
    sorry, but you said you only had ONE ele shammy in your raid grp.
    No matter how much you move, it wont cut your dps in half.

    Troll
    I've no idea what to write here.

  15. #35
    Herald of the Titans ElAmigo's Avatar
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    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    Quote Originally Posted by Findus707
    Lvl70s with blue gear that know what to do can pull off that kind of dps :P
    sure if they're doing aoe...that bout it tho
    "Didn't we have some fun...though? Remember when the platform was sliding into the fire pit and I said 'Goodbye' and you were like 'No way' and then I was all 'We pretended we were going to murder you'......that was great"

  16. #36
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    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    My advice is to leave the guild and pug. It's kinda sad being in a guild that's worse than pugs. That or join a better guild.

  17. #37
    Deleted

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    This is either some bad joke or a really interesting troll method.

    Seeing as how on most realms people are pugging ToGC allready, not to mention the normal modes.
    Icc10 have been pugged, mostly excluding LK kills though.

    Either stop standing in fires/acid or change guilds. lol

  18. #38

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiushtha
    This is either some bad joke or a really interesting troll method.

    Seeing as how on most realms people are pugging ToGC allready, not to mention the normal modes.
    Icc10 have been pugged, mostly excluding LK kills though.

    Either stop standing in fires/acid or change guilds. lol
    Look at the armory. They are indeed having trouble progressing through ICC10 and ToC10 as a guild. The thread was nice for the first couple pages when people were actually helping for once, guess the trolls were just eating dinner or something.

  19. #39

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    I just had a look through a few of his guildies.. Guildmaster is a Shaman gemming for Spirit ???

    Theres a Fury Warrior who got the frost resistance items crafted and then put in epic strength and hit gems..

    Warlocks gemming intellect..

    A few people with +3 Resist All gems or +3 Resistance cloak enchant..

    Elemental shaman with an AP enchant on his caster legs with spellpower..

    Sort these people out! Refer them to sites that would help their class, because looking through your guild members, they've all got one or more things that i could point out as wrong despite not playing their class myself ><

    Edit: I just spotted the worst of them all.. A Protection Paladin gemming INTELLECT! My eyes, they bleed!
    Signature.. Am I doing this right?

  20. #40

    Re: We can progress in ICC but not ToC, Halp!

    Quote Originally Posted by rollo90000
    hardest encounter is anub hes probably harder than anything but arthas.
    How can you possibly say that?

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