What is "worthwhile" in terms of socket bonus

[Tyrrandion]

After A few lucky drops and a frost badge purchase, I believe I'm ready to start gemming straight stam when the socket bonus isn't worth it.

For red sockets with a worthwhile I'm planning on dropping +10 Agi+ 15 Stam, for Blue, +10 Def, +15 Stam.

My only problem is I don't know when a socket is "worth it" to keep a hybrid gem in there. Anyone who has suggestions, I'm more than happy to get advice.

Also, please don't chime in with "it's never worth it, just fit your meta and gem straight stam", I know allot of people feel this way, but I'm just not one of them.

Here's my armory link if you need it
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&cn=Tyrrandion

I also know that your gemming setup will be based on your needs as a tank, so a quick rundown, I'm our guilds main tank atm, we do weekly ICC/TOC 10's, in ICC we should be reaching Saurfang for our first time this upcoming week.

Thanks in advance. Peace.

[malachi13]

Well normally I would say go straight stam with one red to meet your meta but you are fairly strong on health. If you feel you want more hit points I would gem a little bit more stam. I would replace your agi stam gems because agi doesn't scale that well. You are a little over the defense cap but that's no problem because defense still gives you the most avoidance per point after 540. So really it depends on what tank you want to be because you are at that point where you can survive the hits if they hit you but you can still avoid damage saving your healer some time.

[dexter_984]

From the protection paladin guide on this forum:

"There are realistically only 4 kinds of gems and one meta you should consider using as a tank. At extremely low levels of gear it may be necessary to gem pure defense, or switch your meta for lack of the softcap, but that's not a primary concern of this guide. Dictating what socket bonus is worth meeting varies on a fight-by-fight basis and also largely plays into your tanking style. You'll normally default to this template.

Red socket, bonus worth meeting: shifting dreadstone, regal dreadstone
Yellow socket, bonus worth meeting: enduring eye of zul
Blue socket or any socket without a worthwhile bonus: solid majestic zircon
Meta: austere earthseige diamond

There is currently some debate for agi vs dodge gemming. The short version is that dodge will still provide the highest amount of avoidance for a red socket but agi will come close, as well as provide small amounts of EH via armor and a very small amount of threat via crit. Agility really starts to pay off at high levels of gear when the avoidance gain for either stat is diminished, but the secondary benefits of agility remain the same."
http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-pa...or-3-3-and-on/

[klank]

Well, when it doubt it's always a good idea to check EJ posts. This one for example: http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t37172-p...wow_3_0_wotlk/ . Tells you a lot about tanking as a paladin. And while most of it surely is something you know, there may be a detail of two that makes you go "aah, I never thought of it in that way before". Clearly a good read if you're going icc10 as main tank.
I have both tried healing and tanking most of the encounters (11/12 ) in icc and I say I prefer just stacking stamina. I only go for socket bonuses if my meta gem requires a certain color or the socket color can give me a bonus I need (Meaning: If it's a yellow socket with +6 bonus and I need hit, I pop a 10 hit and 15 stamina gem in it). Avoidance is good, but I'd rather you could survive taking two massive blows in a row without me as the healer should have to go crazy - and festergut really packs a punch. So stack up some stamina, get yourself some more armor and you're good to tank atleast 7/12 in icc10 - easily. And gemming defense beyond the cap isn't that helpfull. Better to gem something else.

I hope I have answered your question just a little - and I wish you a pleasant journey into the depths of the citadel.

[MrPistachio]

Personally? Gem all slots with stamina, head with http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41380 and a http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49110 tends to work very well, or a http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40160 for the red/yellow socket color heads. Edit: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40130 also is the choice you should take if you don't need the def rating, and especially if the socket color isn't yellow (though it should rarely be)

Though, if it's say, +8 stam or more and one (really, two blue if there's 3 total sockets) of the sockets is already a blue one, then go for a
Red: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40141 If in need of Expertise
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40138 if not the above
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40130 ^

Yellow: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40167 If you need Def
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40166 if you need hit
Or an orange gem to totally drop stam, you could get a +exp and def, or a +dodge and def. Go with a green gem on good Yellow Sockets always unless you need the def rating of an orange.

I know you only asked about gems, but for enchants you could drop the current enchant you have on boots and go for +22 stam if you lost two points on http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=20117 and put them in http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=26023 , which is better for speed anyways. You could actually drop the 10 stats on chest for a 275 health one. For shoulders you could step up and get http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44957 for 30 stam, which is much more useful than 20 dodge and post-cap def rating. Cloak you're good with the armor enchant. You can go either way with gloves, either 2% threat or 18 stam from http://www.wowhead.com/?item=38376 your choice whether or not you want the threat or stam though I never had a threat problem. Shield... Titanium Plating AND http://www.wowhead.com/?item=38945 are both great enchants to choose, once again it's either mitigation or stamina, tank's choice which is worth more to him. For your weapon, mongoose is fine.


Hope I helped.

[thrizie]

Personally? Gem all slots with stamina, head with http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41380 and a http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49110 tends to work very well, or a http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40160 for the red/yellow socket color heads.

Very poor advice, don't ever gem dodge/defense or nightmare tear, they're both poor gems for a tank.

I personaly only gem for a socket bonus if it gives +9 stam or more for each non-blue gem. So taking an example from your armory, I'd gem your chest with 3 pure stam gems since it's a red/blue/yellow piece with a 12 stam bonus, which means it's only +6 per non-blue gem.

Only gem for hit/stam if you feel you're really struggling with threat and you desperately need it (or if you have no misdirect/tricks for initial threat which would make unlucky misses at the start of the fight problematic), use defense/stam instead. In red sockets use agi/stam, the minor extra EH gain from the armor outweighs the slight gain in avoidance in my opinion.

[MrPistachio]

Very poor advice, don't ever gem dodge/defense or nightmare tear, they're both poor gems for a tank.

I had completely forgotten the shifting dreadstone while posting, just edited it, and though true about the tear I find that some people still use them.

[Offhand]

Currently acceptable to meet any socket bonus that gives you 9 stam per non blue gem (shifting dreadstone for red, enduring eye of zul for yellow).

Although the losses for meeting every stamina socket bonus are minimal. Going by my own gear, I'd gain 90 points of avoidance (def or agi) in exchange for 81 points of stam (only 54 points of itemization).

@OP: You'd get faster returns if you replaced you belt, legs, and avoidance trinket with better gear. Buy the frost badge belt and trinket, craft the 264 legs. Spec for PoJ and replace the stam enchant on your boots, enchant 275 health on your chest and 18 stam on your gloves.

[Cardolan]

I had completely forgotten the shifting dreadstone while posting, just edited it, and though true about the tear I find that some people still use them.

The fact that people do things wrong doesn't mean you should advise other people to do it.

If you're tanking ICC, there is no debate between dodge/stamina and agility/stamina, agility/stamina is simply better.

[Gnomepowa]

Whats worth is +12 or +9 stam bonus. Rest of them not so much. Btw I dont think that the 245 badge helm is better than the set 232 one. But its just my opinion.

Edit: Couldnt help it... why 5 points in reckoning none in DS/DG? Why 5 points in Conviction/SoC and none in Pursuit of Justice? I may be wrong here but the extra movement speed is better than tuskarr's and this way u can get straight 22 stam to boots?

[Offhand]

I may be wrong here but the extra movement speed is better than tuskarr's and this way u can get straight 22 stam to boots?

You're right, your TPS and stamina will increase with PoJ and a 22 stam enchant.

[balloonknot]

Theres a chart available here: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic

Showing the trade off cost of swaping avoidance enchants/gems for effective health enchants/gems.

Most raid tanks go up to about the 2.5 ish range generally meaning picking up +9 or +12 bonuses (per non blue gem) and using the pvp shoulder enchant.

[hoot80]

I don't see anything particularly wrong with how you are gemmed/enchanted right now. The biggest thing you need to be concerned about should be communicating with your healers and seeing if they think you can afford to lose some mitigation in favor of stamina. For Saurfang you should be fine going with Mitigation/Avoidance stats as long as your healers are the same or better geared than you are. Just pop a cooldown when he frenzies.

Later on when you get to Sindragosa (your gear should be better by then anyway) you'll probably want to have some straight stamina gear for that fight because if your stacks get too high while learning phase 3 you can easily take a 50k frost breath.

Good luck.

[Offhand]

Theres a chart available here: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic

Most of it I agree with but exactly how this number is determined leaves me a bit skeptical. It advises ditching 9 stamina socket bonuses much earlier then most would and I don't see anyone in the high end dropping BS or JC for engi and the fucking mind amplification disk!

(Seriously, I doubt anyone would do that)

[balloonknot]

Most of it I agree with but exactly how this number is determined leaves me a bit skeptical. It advises ditching 9 stamina socket bonuses much earlier then most would and I don't see anyone in the high end dropping BS or JC for engi and the fucking mind amplification disk!

(Seriously, I doubt anyone would do that)

Edited my last post i quickly glanced at it and only the inscription shoulder enchant is higher than dropping +9 bonuses, switching from the hodir enchant is much lower.

The main issue with the math is that they treat avoidance stats the same, that is 1 def rating = 1 dodge rating = 1 parry rating in their valuation but of course we know that this isn't the case.

The amplification disk is the last trade off before dropping +12 bonuses so it shouldn't be surprising no one does it and only is on level with dropping the inscription shoulder enchant (but really not since the inscription enchant is mostly dodge rating).

[Offhand]

In reality, no one who rolls a character to mainspec tank should have picked up inscription as an option anyway. It's easy to see why the scribe shoulder enchant lasts so long (comparing the 20 points of (effective) stat allocation the pvp enchant gives versus the 75 brought by the profession enchant).

Similarity, if you're actually going to min/max professions to that degree, wouldn't JC/LW be a better EH combo then the 8 stam and some 600 armor (with an incredible variable EH value)?

[balloonknot]

i never said anyone would or should be inscription nor did i say someone should go engineering, not even sure where you got that from my post. i was just correcting where i initially said the pvp shoulder enchant trade falls on the chart and stating that is not surprising no one considers the engineering helm enchant as an option considering where it falls in the opportunity cost chart.

You seem to want anything non-ideal banished from even being mentioned but calculating charts like this is exactly how you determine what is ideal in the first place. For instance before the calculations that resulted in this chart were done many assumed that the 275hp to chest enchant was a high cost place to trade avoidance for effective health when in fact it is a relatively low cost place to make the trade.

[Offhand]

I never said you should or would be a scribe or engi. But I fail to see how they get included when talking about min/max situations. The inclusion of the mind amp enchant is even caveated in the thread.

Digren says, "Extreme stamina stackers who are inexplicably still engineers can benefit slightly from their profession, but for most the Argent Crusade supplies the one and only choice."

Which makes me wonder why it was included in the first place. My own professions aren't perfect, I use JC/BS for all around spec utility even though my mainspec has always been tanking on this character.

[Banan]

You need more help than only sockets m8.