Balance Druids - How could we better ourselves?

[olgreg3bear]

The world of Balance druids is not in turmoil, but it could be better. Both PvE wise and PvP wise. This is not a whining thread. This is a thread to amass ideas from multiple moonkin-related forums, and converge on a good, solid idea or two. (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...66992366&sid=1 for original topic.) As we all know 3.3.3 is soon to release (i believe this tuesday, but i wouldn't bet money) and it doesn't look like moonkins will be receiving further changes. This is the perfect time imo to propose idea's to blizzard and allow them time to think about, work on, and nerf/buff the proposal's into existence.

My goals are as follows:

"1. Research more in depth upon the other hybrid classes, specifically their caster dps spec's, compare their Best WoL with the Best Balance druid WoL and see what measures out to what, and in which area's they trump us in, and how it could be better matched. (or balanced lololol) Gonna provide my results with links to those results, and any that other people can find would be much appreciated.

2. before posting anything in the damage dealing forums I'm going to post this idea In the mmo-champion.com druid forums, and in themoonkinrepository.com forums. Gonna get as much feedback and as many idea's as i can.

3. Going to cop a less whiny attitude about Balance druids. Whining wont get much done, and provide a higher chance of a negative response. Any idea's you have to better our spec are a tremendous help.

I wanna put the boom back in boomkin, lend me a hand and spill your idea's and try to make a difference in the world of Balance druids."


So far i know for certain that we provide:

Faerie Fire: 3 % hit increase. Also covered By spriests

Earth & Moon: 13 % spell damage increase. Covered By Warlocks and something else. (it escapes me atm)

Improved Moonkin Aura : 3 % haste. Also covered by Shamans Wrath of air totem.

I know that our 5 % chance to critically hit with spells is covered by another class, but that also escapes me atm as well.

I am proud to be a Balance druid, and our spec is enjoyable and fun to play. But when our Utility features can be covered by other classes, we don't have much of a chance in pvp (at all) and our dps is below other hybrid classes, we aren't bringing much to the table, plain and simple.

I am aware of the starfall buff, and am ecstatic that our 51 talent point is starting to look pretty tasty, but the spells we use as the core of our dps, i.e. Insect swarm, Moonfire, Wrath, and Starfire are becoming less and less. We are the only Hybrid class that has dots that do not naturally scale with haste and have the ability to crit (naturally as in without tier bonuses) Any ideas, suggestions, and/or theories are more than welcome here, and i plan to put together something that all moonkins can agree on in a post on the Damage Dealing Forums, in hopes of attracting a blue post.

-Oldegreg

[Parasha]

1: this is a whine post
2:

we don't have much of a chance in pvp (at all)

l2p, there are lot of moonkins pulling 2k+ rating in all brackets, we cant compare them to mages/rogues, becouse it is spec, not a class. like there are almost no sub rogues and fire mages in arenas. about battlegrounds, i think we are the most strongest casters in there, if we got a healer folowing up and our eclipse procs, no1 can stay alive there.
3:

our dps is below other hybrid classes

what do you call by "other hybrid clases" ele shamans, Spriests? you cant compare ous to any other, and im prety sure i can beat both of them with same gear and skill.

[Taurdrood]

1: this is a whine post
2:
Quote
we don't have much of a chance in pvp (at all)
l2p, there are lot of moonkins pulling 2k+ rating in all brackets, we cant compare them to mages/rogues, becouse it is spec, not a class. like there are almost no sub rogues and fire mages in arenas. about battlegrounds, i think we are the most strongest casters in there, if we got a healer folowing up and our eclipse procs, no1 can stay alive there.
3:
Quote
our dps is below other hybrid classes

Ive been 2k+ in arena as moonkin and I can safely say that it would be MUCH easier as another class. You have to have a lot of patience and most people do not. BUT In terms of representation..moonkins have nothing.

Nobody has the patience and we simply do not meet other classes in terms of utility and damage. We do are unique but most people would rather take a mage or warlock. I consder myself a BALANCE DRUID...Not resto...not feral..they are all different. I want my specc to be viable..Moonkins are a joke unless your well geared..and have been playing the specc for a long time in arena.

And the fact that its a specc not a class is not a basis for arguement because the reason your a frost mage instead of a fire mage is because FROST IS MORE VIABLE THAN FIRE. It is much easier to get a high rating in frost. The same goes for a druid with balance. You can get a high rating easier as restoration.

Being a hybrid..a Druid. I have 3 choices...Melee dps. Healing. Cast dps. In arena
I CHOOSE CASTER DPS. I do not want to be funneled into being another specc because it is more viable.

As far as PVE dps..I can say our biggest problem is that we lack mobility.. Our Eclipse mechanic for dps is very hindered by movement because that is how we reach our highest dps point. Other speccs/classes for dps dont need to worry about that because with the correct rotation they can return to their dps faster and easier than a balance druid can during movement.

You obviously have not played a Balance druid at level 80 and if you have then you have to be joking to say that we could not use any changes.

[Abandon]

Moonkin Form:
This form now allows your damage over time effects to critically hit, and scale with haste.

That should sort PVP, look what adding haste scaling on two of their DoTs did for Shadow Priests.

[Khad]

"Other hybrids" would include retri paladin and to some extend warriors and dk:s... but some say that last two are up to debate.

Annyhows, you can not just say that "we have some who can..." and say that its all cool and dandy. Balance as a spec is great in battleground but sucks monekey balls in arena. And has been so for a long time. As arena seems to be the benchmark for balanced pvp nowadays, its what we judge our selfs against. At current we are slow by slow finding our way to 3vs and 5vs... 2 vs being still (as it has been since S2) mostly a " no go" for a serious arena gaiming. As a hint, would it NOT be like this, we would not be getting (what some would call a major) buff to our PvP abilites in 3.3.3. Finally, look back and check the end season arean rankings. See any balance druids in the top 10 teams? how about top 20?

Your saying
"we cant compare them to mages/rogues, becouse it is spec, not a class. like there are almost no sub rogues and fire mages in arenas".
This is just plain wrong. Yes, we have a spec that does kinda well( depending of the season anything between op and really nice tbh) in arenas doesnt mean BALANCE is doing fine. Blizz has admit that "yes, resto is fine and feral is fine" and that balance druids well be looked after, thou " as we have few specs that do fine" we are not on the top ot the list. This, btw, dates back to TBC. Not exatly new topic, is it? You really, really cant compare a hunter/lock and a druid/shaman like that. This, btw is opionon from Blizz aswell as being the pow for pretty much all who play pvp and can think for them selfs. Most "pure dps" classes and "tank&dps" classes have defined will work/wont work in pvp specs build in them. Our roles are so diverse that our PvP/PvE choises are mostly within that one talent tree. Infact, at point in the past, the opinion of many was that balance was not a spec ment for.. well anything much tbh. It was fairly late in(about S3?) TBC when first restokin, then pure balance really lifted head in arena. (if i recall right, it was SL/SL lock & reatokin combo that really did fine in arena to the extend that "balance" as a viable druid arena spec "came to be". Weather or not restokin of that era was just a offencive healer or a real balance pvp spec, is again, open to depate)

You can beat ele shamans and spriest? Cool. Where? In what fights? Conserning moving? Multi target? Single target? Im hearing that spriest are pretty fucking great in LK (thou we are too) You beat them too? Balance as spec is doing kinda nice( and again, we will get buffed in 3.3.3)... Yes, scaling. Yes haste and crit. Yes movement, but still, deasent Owl will do deasent damage. What the hell is your point? You beat spriest and some shamens so we all agree that balance as spec is doing fine and thats it.... right... do you read these forums at all. The biggest arguments seems to be between weather or not we are doing fine. Glad that you have the answer. We win elemental shamans and shadow priest. Im in a happy place now. Ill better go open a beer for celebration.

Most of all, i thank you for your most informative post. /bow

Khad

[Dhurn]

Instead of a 15 second duration, make eclipse on a charge basis. Wrath gets 10 charges and starfire gets 5. Two separate eclipse procs cannot be active at the same time. 20 second icd for each seperate effect. Still would involve a switching mechanic, but movement would not be so devastating because the charges would be retaintained whereas time is not.

Also, I would like to see a glyph or talent that works like glyph of starfire, but for wrath + insect swarm. Something like your wrath spell increases the duration of your insect swarm by 2 seconds, adding a maximum of 12 seconds to the duration of insect swarm.

That said, I believe moonkin are quite strong as is. I can generally pull in the mid 8k range now with my 4pc, which I think is fairly respectable considering the amount of utility we bring.

[revasky]

These threads are just getting old. People make them and expect results but its not going to happen before cata comes out. A few well known, very math oriented, moonkins have been asking for scaling dots and wrath changes since 3.2 and they have yet to do anything about it, and now with cata being close( or close enough that they wont do a major overhaul) we have to deal with the shit we have now. I don't believe crying is the solution here the wait and see approach seems like a much better strategy given blizzards track record.


[EDIT] Rereading the OP's post his information isn't even accurate no one is going to take him seriously if he thinks shamans cover a 3% haste buff(theirs is 5% haste from wrath of air, ret paladins give the 3% haste equal to ours).

[olgreg3bear]

These threads are just getting old. People make them and expect results but its not going to happen before cata comes out. A few well known, very math oriented, moonkins have been asking for scaling dots and wrath changes since 3.2 and they have yet to do anything about it, and now with cata being close( or close enough that they wont do a major overhaul) we have to deal with the shit we have now. I don't believe crying is the solution here the wait and see approach seems like a much better strategy given blizzards track record.


[EDIT] Rereading the OP's post his information isn't even accurate no one is going to take him seriously if he thinks shamans cover a 3% haste buff(theirs is 5% haste from wrath of air, ret paladins give the 3% haste equal to ours).

Ok. I made a mistake about a few percentages there. I never claimed to be as omniscient and all-knowing as your self. But if there is one thing i refuse to take serious it's the thought process that seems to be going through your mind that Moonkins are going to change by keeping our mouths shut, and expect for things to just "happen". I don't have to know what percentage a Retadin gives with his buff to understand that much.

I am also extremely curious to know as to how getting together constructive ideas to better our class that we can agree on is crying.

No matter how old you may think the subject is, the fact that it is old and has not changed is the subject matter my friend. I'm trying to be productive, to help out where i can, and to provide a more enjoyable over-all experience for my class. Get down from your high-horse and lend a hand, or keep your negative opinions to yourself, please.

[starvethedead]

..we don't have much of a chance in pvp (at all) and our dps is below other hybrid classes..

Increase damage mitigation.
Increase dps.

Was that so hard?

[olgreg3bear]

Increase damage mitigation.
Increase dps.

Was that so hard?

Not in those terms no :P

But how? To where it won't overpower other druid specs? Whats best and fair to the other hybrid classes so they aren't stuck in the same boat we are in? This is what i think is making it hard for Blizzard, along with every other classes problems.

But yes, if the two things that you posted happened, i would be overjoyed

[olgreg3bear]

Oh my..



[EDIT] Why would you post this in the druid forums on the main wow site? Not only is it full of the least intelligent group of people i have ever had the pleasure of seeing post but blues don't read class forums anymore(thats why they made the D&D forum).

Please don't name call, saying other people are "the least intelligent" when you failed to read my original post i the first place, thus flaming this thread for something that has already been stated. =/

"(thats why they made the D&D forum)."

and i plan to put together something that all moonkins can agree on in a post on the Damage Dealing Forums, in hopes of attracting a blue post.

-Oldegreg

Let's keep it civil, this is a positive thread

[Sinzaram]

So far i know for certain that we provide:

Faerie Fire: 3 % hit increase. Also covered By spriests

Earth & Moon: 13 % spell damage increase. Covered By Warlocks and something else. (it escapes me atm)

Improved Moonkin Aura : 3 % haste. Also covered by Shamans Wrath of air totem.

I know that our 5 % chance to critically hit with spells is covered by another class, but that also escapes me atm as well.

Yay for incorrect and inaccurate raid buff data! Let me fix that for you.

Faerie Fire: 5 % armor debuff. Also covered by Druids, Warlocks and Hunter wasp pet
Improved Faerie Fire: 3 % hit spell increase. Also covered by Shadow Priests
Earth & Moon: 13 % spell damage increase. Also covered by Warlocks and Unholy Deathknights
Moonkin Aura: 5 % spell crit increase. Also covered by Elemental Shaman.
Improved Moonkin Aura : 3 % haste increase. Also covered by Retribution Paladins.

[olgreg3bear]

Yay for incorrect and inaccurate raid buff data! Let me fix that for you.

Faerie Fire: 5 % armor debuff. Also covered by Druids, Warlocks and Hunter wasp pet
Improved Faerie Fire: 3 % hit spell increase. Also covered by Shadow Priests
Earth & Moon: 13 % spell damage increase. Also covered by Warlocks and Unholy Deathknights
Moonkin Aura: 5 % spell crit increase. Also covered by Elemental Shaman.
Improved Moonkin Aura : 3 % haste increase. Also covered by Retribution Paladins.

[EDIT] Rereading the OP's post his information isn't even accurate no one is going to take him seriously if he thinks shamans cover a 3% haste buff(theirs is 5% haste from wrath of air, ret paladins give the 3% haste equal to ours).

Ty for the data correction. Extremely Sarcastic and rude, but nonetheless helpful.

Just so everyone knows, i am aware of the mistakes i made with the percentages ^_^ Don't need to be told a third time :P

Lets keep the constructive and helpful idea's about improving our spec rolling, like alot of the idea's so far.

Moonkin Form:
This form now allows your damage over time effects to critically hit, and scale with haste.

That should sort PVP, look what adding haste scaling on two of their DoTs did for Shadow Priests.

Seems awesome, would you mean for it to affect languish too? I like the idea of adding it to our aura, kind of like Qieth's idea of making Eclipse a permanent aura.

[revasky]

The devs have already read and acknowledged the problems we have they have said a few times that the main issues with our spec can not be dealt with this late in a expansion( i.e wait till cata). making threads telling them the things they already know is not going to help at all. But ill leave your thread now for fear of getting the ban hammer for being unproductive.

[olgreg3bear]

The devs have already read and acknowledged the problems we have they have said a few times that the main issues with our spec can not be dealt with this late in a expansion( i.e wait till cata). making threads telling them the things they already know is not going to help at all. But ill leave your thread now for fear of getting the ban hammer for being unproductive.

You have alot of merit in what you said. I'm not in anyway trying to start an argument with you D: It's true that they won't be making drastic changes with us until cata, but little tweaks here and there (i.e. the starfall buff, the Nature's Grasp buff) can help us out by more than a small margin.

But yes, your right, nothing major till cata. It would be nice if we had a good solid compilation of idea's for what players of the spec believe should change in the right place, instead of in random Druid forums, like you yourself said. (not saying this is one of said compilations, just trying to get together good idea's here and see what others see about these idea's)

[Morning_star]

Saying people: you are doing qq without giving an appropriate answer has become trendy and doesn't help class/spec improvement.
If someone here thinks moonkin are perfect as they are, then can stay with their opionion.
If someone else thinks that a positive criticism about our class can help developers(even in a little post like this)to make us better, then is right to talk about it.
Main problem we have against other hybrid classes is that they can have a stat: haste that scales perfectly with their gear, for shadow priests scales with their t10 4 pcs bonus, while we retain half the value of crit and haste, over having eclipse problems during movements, i'm thinking about festergut hc where we have to move from goo goo over than run to spores and be still for some second hit by vile gas.
A solution could be longer the cast time of wrath;changing nature's grace into a sp buff; simply abolish eclipse giving our spells more damage; give us some more powerful dot to fill the gap while we have to move.
Actually, in 25 man i hardly see on not static fights logs where shadowpriests and ele shamans are behind us.
There are exceptions but imho the problem still remains.

[lappee]

exactly what revasky said. nothing major is going to happen be4 cata and in cata everything will change in terms of archeology, path of the titans and mastery stat (-->total revamp of talent trees)
so i dont really see whats the point of threads like this? we should just wait till cataclysm beta and start talking when we actually see whats coming already

[Deleted]

you should get out more...

on topic: this thread is just a useless QQ thread by someone who clearly doesnt know how to play his moonkin properly and make the most of the RNG that comes his way...

MOONKINS ARE FINE!!! if you dont like how they are i suggest one of 2 things:

Learn to play

or reroll...

/thread

This sums it up

[olgreg3bear]

you should get out more...

on topic: this thread is just a useless QQ thread by someone who clearly doesnt know how to play his moonkin properly and make the most of the RNG that comes his way...

MOONKINS ARE FINE!!! if you dont like how they are i suggest one of 2 things:

Learn to play

or reroll...

/thread

I don't even know what to say to this. Let's be positive. Let's be constructive. Let's try to come up with way's we could improve our spec. Apparently I'm Crying about my class and there is ZERO room for improvement for our spec. We do perfectly fine in arena's, we are perfectly pvp viable, and our raid dps has ZERO issues with it, we aren't affected by movement at all and our dots are wonderful.

If anything is going to make me cry it's how conceited, blind, negative, hateful, and overall just wrong you would have to be to believe what you said. Open your eyes. I'm not the best moonkin, never stated to be the best moonkin. But i know I can play my class and i make the most of what i have, and i do a damn good job at it. But if your going to sit their and tell me there aren't problems that need fixing and throw out your childish "l2play" "/thread" statements then you really have some growing up to do, and maybe need to do some comparing with balance and every other hybrid caster class. (on terms of pvp AND pve)

[Sunfyre]

I don't even know what to say to this. Let's be positive. Let's be constructive. Let's try to come up with way's we could improve our spec. Apparently I'm Crying about my class and there is ZERO room for improvement for our spec. We do perfectly fine in arena's, we are perfectly pvp viable, and our raid dps has ZERO issues with it, we aren't affected by movement at all and our dots are wonderful.

If anything is going to make me cry it's how conceited, blind, negative, hateful, and overall just wrong you would have to be to believe what you said. Open your eyes. I'm not the best moonkin, never stated to be the best moonkin. But i know I can play my class and i make the most of what i have, and i do a damn good job at it. But if your going to sit their and tell me there aren't problems that need fixing and throw out your childish "l2play" "/thread" statements then you really have some growing up to do, and maybe need to do some comparing with balance and every other hybrid caster class. (on terms of pvp AND pve)

The problem is you can't make a real constructive post on how to fix us when you don't even have all the prerequisite knowledge. Knowing who you share synergies with is the first part. No, moonkin really aren't fine, but we all realize that there isn't going to be major changes before Cataclysm.