How much threat should a paladin do?

[SalcN]

Assuming you're a tank: More than the DPS and the Healers :>

[crabmousse]

Really? Weird, I didnt have that problem with my DK when she was leveling up- Ofc, i did forget sometimes to go and actually TRAIN my new ranks

I'm not sure if it's pally specific but rankwatch actually has a pre-made whisper that informs you about the bug if you're using a lower rank exorcism or consecration. I was tanking an ICC10 alt run for guild last week and at the first pull I was spammed by rankwatch, turns out I was using low rank on 3 or 4 spells.

[Galith]

I'll be honest this sounds like he was missing RF. I've noticed that if you DI someone or are DI'd then you lose RF and have to refresh it. I can only pull like 3.5k TPS if I am going all out (other than wings) if I don't have RF up. With RF up I pull 8-10k

[fizikz]

uh, I dont think since I started leveling prot at 71 I did less than 3k dps on bosses... in my crappy (off spec) gear at 80, I'm doing around 5k... with probably an average of ilevel 219 gear (mostly mix of 200/232 with a few 219) he's doing something severely wrong. probably just hitting buttons without a rotation, or not using a button all together (SHoR maybe?) also he should use vengeance on bosses...

[Vaufe]

I'll be honest this sounds like he was missing RF. I've noticed that if you DI someone or are DI'd then you lose RF and have to refresh it. I can only pull like 3.5k TPS if I am going all out (other than wings) if I don't have RF up. With RF up I pull 8-10k

Yeah, overall I'd say this guy probably had a low RF uptime, and with that, probably had a bad TPS rotation. And by bad, I mean none at all. I think you'd almost have to *try* to do as little as 2.5k TPS on a boss.


Could be like the tank I got in DTK the other night. Defence of 483 and geared with +agi. Made me want to write a quick addon to alert me when the tank isn't 535/540.

[luthe]

as a paladin... riiiiiiiight...

no seriously, even if paladins could use daggers, it wouldn't really change his threat production.

aaaaaand that is where you're wrong.

Daggers are generally fast and slow weapons generate a ton more threat then fast weapons do.

Read up on Theck's Analysis of Weapon Speed to check out how it affects paladin TPS.

[luthe]

If he's using a threat set, yes, 12-14K TPS consistently is possible. However, if he's using an EH set as you probably should be in any serious raid, this threat will drop to around 6-8K TPS, usually spiking up higher with RNG. For a tankadin, a threat set would likely consist of at least 1 damage increasing trinket such as Greatness Strength, a slow 1h DPS weapon, and a high amount of BV (i believe the amount is about 2400 unbuffed). The weapon will usually have a high top-end damage, and quite likely some Agility and either Crit, Haster or ArPen (the latter being more useless than the others). It'll also have pure AP on it. The libram will usually be one that gives a BV bonus.

Since HotR, and SoV (SoComm too, right?) are both based on Weapon Damage, having a weapon with a high top-end (usually a slow weapon), the TPS potential of them is higher than that of a slow weapon. It's only balanced out because a slow weapon hits less often. A fast weapon will get you initial threat quicker, but a slow weapon will generate more TPS over time.

The theorycrafting numbers are usually pretty high above real-world numbers, but this is down to the usual things such as lag/latency, imperfetions in rotation, and variations in gear.

@your weapon speed comment, it largely only effects Seals, but since seals proc off of abilities as well the top end plays a larger factor.

HotR is not weapon damage directly. It's character sheet dps ((Weapon Damage + AP) * damage modifiers) x 4, meaning a 2.6 196 dps weapon will provide the exact same HotR damage as a 1.6 196 dps weapon.

The only part of threat that is factored in weapon speed, is seal damage, and white hit damage (which would be normalized, from weapon speed vs dps)

TL;DR: Slow Weapons provide bigger Seal hits on ShoR, and HotR, which more then outweighs less whitehits (which mean nothing for threat anyway)

[InbredPsychosis]

I tend to pull 7-12k, with a 5.6k GS, not gemming or gearing at all for threat.

Even an entry level tank in 187 blues should be pulling 4-5k.

[Daffyduck]

Quite possible that he wasn't weapon skill capped thus missing everything...

[thorenSSE]

Spells will replace themselves in both specs with the most recent rank automatically.

Actually they dont. I also experienced that RankWatch spam as i switched to prot recently. Still had some of the abilities keybound from leveling so i didnt switch them out. Its kind of embarrassing if you get whispered on every pull and its always some other spell which isnt maxranked (happened to both AS and Concecration so cant be spec specific)

I think the reason why you dont experience it on DK is that you dont really have many "spells".
Most of your abilities are melee attacks, where the old ranks simply get replaced by the new ranks in your spellbook. Afair you can not downrank melee attacks can you?

[tlitd]

(...) even if paladins could use daggers, it wouldn't really change his threat production.

Daggers are generally fast and slow weapons generate a ton more threat then fast weapons do.

Weapon swing timer isn't the only reason for which daggers would be, hypothetically speaking, a suboptimal choice. They also have a smaller normalization factor - it's a "feature" that was implemented more than four years ago.

Slow Weapons provide bigger Seal hits on ShoR, and HotR (...)

There are several factors which make slow weapons better than their (ilvl/dps-equivalent) fast counterparts :

• seals associated with abilities that aren't time-normalized
• bigger player parryhaste factors, (when applicable) smaller boss parryhaste factors
• Reckoning
• higher uptime of ppm-based effects generated by both weapon enchants (Berserking, Mongoose, Blade Ward) and talents (Vindication)

Now try explaining to a paladin uninitiated in the darkened art of theorycrafting that slower weapons actually have defensive bonuses. ;D