1. #1

    3.3.3 Demo Raid-DPS Trinkets?

    Tonight we should be killing Heroic 25 Sindragosa, assuming so since we had a couple close wipes on Thursday (not bad for first week on her). Heroic Phylactery could drop. Right now the eligible people would most likely be our resident Demo lock and my Mage, who is going Fire when 3.3.3 hits on Tuesday. As a raid leader, I'd like to know who this item would be better given to for progression. According to the 3.3.3 PTR, theres some "bug" or change to Demonic Pact that makes any procs contribute and roll with it, according to some. This would mean a much higher Demonic Pact spellpower increase for the raid when the Demo Lock uses proc trinkets such as DFO or Phylactery. Is this just a rumor? Was it functioning like this on the PTR? If so, is it going live? It seems OP.

    As for what our DPS models are, my mage usually sits in the top 1-3 depending on an average fight. Our Demo Lock is usually down near our Ele Shaman at the bottom. My mage is currently using Talisman of Resurgence (never got better - our raid has never seen a DFO drop, 264 or 277) and a Heroic Reign of the Dead. Our Demo Lock is using a 264 Spyglass and an Illustration of the Dragon Soul, as they give lots of bonus spellpower to the raid. With the 3.3.3 changes to Fire, I am going to be respeccing, as it yields higher single-target DPS in my current gear. Phylactery is AMAZING for fire, rated higher than 277 DFO. Currently on our waiting list for DFO, My mage is third behind him (demo lock) and a shadow priest.

    My question to you fine folks at mmo-champion is: For the greatest benefit of our raid progression, would a 277 Phylactery be better used in the hands of our Demo Lock or my Fire Mage come 3.3.3?

  2. #2

    Re: 3.3.3 Demo Raid-DPS Trinkets?

    It's not a bug but they are increasing the duration to 45 seconds with an internal cooldown of 20 seconds, if I am remembering correctly, this means you could miss entire procs if you get a demonic pact just before your trinket procs then one just after, or you could catch the proc at the end and you get the benefit for at least another 20 seconds after the proc ends, obviously this adds a lot of RNG.

    For progression I would usually prefer reliability to RNG but in this case while you will probably get a larger dps increase than the lock by getting the trinket, they will get a smaller increase plus an increase to every caster in the raid including yourself. I would say the raid DPS you will gain would be larger by giving it to the lock than your personal dps increase, not to mention a small healing bonus

  3. #3

    Re: 3.3.3 Demo Raid-DPS Trinkets?

    In 3.3.3 proc based trinkets will be increasingly unreliable for rDPS gain. Someone who is gearing for rDPS should be using Muradin's and another trinket with high static SP. You do need to keep in mind the personal DPS gain in the equation though. Take for instance IDS vs Reign (258). IDS is 32 SP higher, which is +3.2 SP to the raid. However, Reign's proc is worth around 250 DPS. You would need something like 30 casters in your raid for IDS to be a higher DPS contribution. So Reign is stronger. You can do something similar with DFO/Phylactery. If the personal DPS gain results in a weight that is impossible to achieve with rDPS, then the personal gain is superior.

    Part of what needs to be kept in mind is that because SP weightings are based partially on cooldowns and other procs, the SP gain from procs on DP is always worse than the normal scaling, while a static SP gain can be treated normally. This will be an even greater disparity with the new changes.

    Now, as far as who should have priority? That depends entirely on your loot system. In our loot council you would be lower priority due to being Fire unless you were consistently able to top charts despite the poor spec decision. A Demo Lock who is unable to place above the hybrids would also not be given a raid spot at all. So, it really depends. In our guild it would be given to the Shadow Priest as we do not currently (may change in 3.3.3) allow Mages to raid as Fire.

  4. #4

    Re: 3.3.3 Demo Raid-DPS Trinkets?

    From everything I read, every new application of Demonic pact over writes the old one even if its a spellpower drop. So yes, static sp trink are win. personally I would w8 in DFO and give that to the lock or even ask him to use Reign with spyglass.

    On a side not, your demo lock shoudnt be bottom dps. Lots of locks tend to go demo as an excuse to pull low dps. I do on average 9.5k dps as demo which competes with all my other guilies apart form the hunters that are just constantly facerolling rediculous numbers.
    Though on second thought is he running with an extremely rDPS balanced set? if so how much sp does he give on DP proc? im giving about 550 atm and dunno how much more I can squeeze out if i swapping in full spirit>haste gear. Would the over all dps increase out weigh my current pDPS??

  5. #5

    Re: 3.3.3 Demo Raid-DPS Trinkets?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    In our loot council you would be lower priority due to being Fire unless you were consistently able to top charts despite the poor spec decision.

    In our guild it would be given to the Shadow Priest as we do not currently (may change in 3.3.3) allow Mages to raid as Fire.
    I think you skipped over these details:

    Quote Originally Posted by nemex
    With the 3.3.3 changes to Fire, I am going to be respeccing, as it yields higher single-target DPS in my current gear.

    My question to you fine folks at mmo-champion is: For the greatest benefit of our raid progression, would a 277 Phylactery be better used in the hands of our Demo Lock or my Fire Mage come 3.3.3?
    I believe he is saying that he is NOT fire atm, harky. That being said, I may not be a mage or a lock, but I am very curious about this subject. Could you restate your opinion without the side commentary about spec?

  6. #6

    Re: 3.3.3 Demo Raid-DPS Trinkets?

    Going fire once servers are online today. Was sick last night with the flu, but they killed it and the stamina trinket dropped. Still am interested in more opinions however.

  7. #7
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: 3.3.3 Demo Raid-DPS Trinkets?

    3.3.3 changes means that Phylactery would only be better for your raid if it procced outside of the 20s DP ICD window. There could be a lot of math done on this, but just know that it's not guaranteed to benefit you all. However, when it does, it lasts longer than the trinket itself. If I had to guess, 2 procs of the trinket that also gets refreshed with DP would result in a net dps gain over giving the trinket to a fire mage.

    Give the fire mage DFO and muradins or something.

    R.I.P. YARG

  8. #8
    Mechagnome
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    Re: 3.3.3 Demo Raid-DPS Trinkets?

    Crit is even more worthless with the DP change, Demos job is to stack spirit/sp while maximizing personal dps.

    Spyglass/DFO (Thou i have been passing on our first 4 DFO and the rest until all dps get one)

  9. #9

    Re: 3.3.3 Demo Raid-DPS Trinkets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarn
    I think you skipped over these details:

    I believe he is saying that he is NOT fire atm, harky. That being said, I may not be a mage or a lock, but I am very curious about this subject. Could you restate your opinion without the side commentary about spec?
    I was a bit out of it, thought he was saying he was fire. (By a bit out of it, I mean a lot.) My bad.

    As Gherkin said though the issue is consistency. When using a proc based trinket, especially one with a very long ICD the fight will settle into a rhythm of when DP procs and when the trinket procs and you'll have a very wide SP distribution. If you're looking at 10,000 iterations of a fight then it will even out, but you can't do that. How many attempts will you be getting per night? 6-12 attempts per hour on most bosses? Probably closer to 6 there. If you're raiding 20 hours a week that's only 120 attempts. How many of those will the procs line up properly?

    It's worse with DFO than Phylactery as well because you also run the risk of DP proccing when DFO hasn't stacked much. It's also pretty harsh now with procs that last less than 20 seconds because DP can proc just before and just after the proc and you'll gain no DP benefit. It's why the BiS lists for Demo don't include tailoring, while every other list of every other caster spec should. 15 second proc can be hopped right over. Basically for progression you need to be reliable. It's why I hate pDPS Demo Locks so much as well. When the stars align they do great, but on average they're crap. What you're looking for is a high reliable SP output for DP without costing yourself too much personal DPS. That's why we use Spirit gear and why Muradin's is easily best in slot. Neither is a large loss of personal DPS, but both are stable sources of SP.

    Now, the other issue is that when calculating raid-DPS gain from DP you assume other classes SP scalings. The problem here is that most classes SP scaling is again based on 10,000 iterations that include procs, cooldowns and other factors. So when you introduce a proc on a proc and then apply that to their procs and cooldowns you can not use their full SP scaling. The usual number for raid DPS is 1.7 * casters, but the truth is that the 1.7 figure has to be reduced for several classes if you're relying on procs. The problem this causes is that you then have to consider the second trinket slot on personal DPS grounds, which sucks. A lot. Phylactery is out because DFO is higher personal DPS by a decent margin, but Reign can be considered because it offers both high personal DPS and stable raid DPS. Because of the really long ICD on Phylactery and the stacking nature of DFO, I would say that anyone with a 258 Reign who is rDPS Demo should pass on both at least until 277 DFO, then check if the personal DPS loss is too extreme to hold onto Reign.

  10. #10
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: 3.3.3 Demo Raid-DPS Trinkets?

    Just to clarify - there are two risks here:

    1) Proc DP with low (or zero) stack of DFO
    2) Proc DP with Phylactery (90s ICD) on CD.

    The question becomes which one is more overall across any 5 minute fight:

    1000 SP for 20 seconds followed by 70 seconds (1:10) of downtime (total 3 procs)
    OR
    100 to 1000 SP for 20 seconds followed by 25 seconds of downtime (total 6 procs)

    Looking at it as an average across an entire night I say DFO, as Phylactery has a higher risk-reward, but personally I'd choose Phylactery (GOGO META POP!) for big numbers. Plus since the cooldowns line up, you could proc Phylacerty, send your pet in to proc DP, and then when Phylactery is almost up, pull the pet back for a brief moment until its up and send him in again. DP's ICD will always be up 10s earlier than Phylactery.

    R.I.P. YARG

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