Any real number for the new life tap?

[Elementality]

Personally, I get around 3900 self buffed life-taps (3100 SP), and around 4.8~4.9k life taps in a 25man raid (4300 SP~).

[Kvn]

Incorrect. The new formula for life tap at rank 8 is:

2000 + 0.5 * Spellpower

With Improved Life Tap (20%), the static number and multiplier is increased by 20% and becomes:

2400 + 0.6 * Spellpower

So Dark Pact is better than improved Life Tap starting from 3336 SP assuming the dark pact formula is 1200 + .96 * SP. At 4000SP, dark pact only returns 240 mana more.

No, YOU are wrong. That was the coefficients released far earlier, look on the first page I showed you the same math as you just showed me. The coefficients were changed. You can test it in game, life tap with 0 spellpower to get the static number, then put on your gear and do (Mana Gained - Static #) / Spellpower

[Demonologist]

I don't recall the exact numbers, but as an rDPS demo lock I was still getting a noticable bonus on rate of mana return. Even gearing for rDPS my spirit values aren't nearly as high as they were in ToC, and they're dropping all the time, so I imagine this change will only get better as time goes on.

Pre-patch I was having to tap roughly every 15-20 seconds outside of meta/bloodlust/devious minds and other major procs, last night I let it go all the way to the 40 second mark fairly frequently and never felt particularly pressed for mana.

Good times.

[kittycuddler]

After looking at WoL from last night, I was getting on average 4400-4500 mana from each tap during fights. I'm at 3227 sp unbuffed, and somewhere hovering around 4300 buffed in raid, which gets up to over 6k with DFO procs and things like that. So it varies, but overall it's a good change! (This is as Meta)

[Shifto]

No, YOU are wrong. That was the coefficients released far earlier, look on the first page I showed you the same math as you just showed me. The coefficients were changed. You can test it in game, life tap with 0 spellpower to get the static number, then put on your gear and do (Mana Gained - Static #) / Spellpower

http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t48311-s..._numbers/p112/ to backup my numbers. Try testing it for yourself before rebutting correct information.

[Kvn]

http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t48311-s..._numbers/p112/ to backup my numbers. Try testing it for yourself before rebutting correct information.

You're right, I think what happened is that I tested it on live with my pvp affliction spec (which has 2/2 LT, and I forgot). My numbers were reinforced when someone else said that the coefficients had changed since they had been released on a version of the patch notes.

I DID test them for myself, so I was 100% sure I was correct. I just tested them incorrectly

[harky]

The coefficient was indeed changed between the PTR and Live, though the change is undocumented. As rDPS Demo you can expect taps for 5k+.

[Kvn]

The coefficient was indeed changed between the PTR and Live, though the change is undocumented. As rDPS Demo you can expect taps for 5k+.

But it wasn't, the static number was though from 1490 to 2000. That's the only difference between PTR and live. It was 1490 + 0.5 Spellpower now it's 2000 + 0.5 Spellpower

And it's 2200+0.6*Spellpower for 2/2 LT

[harky]

Not quite. If you read the EJ post you'll even note the discrepancy. My average Life Tap last night was ~4.7k. That would imply that I have 5.4k+ SP average. I can get more than 5.4k (around 6.3k with procs if I swap gear), but my average SP is barely over 5k. It also doesn't quite explain taps of 5200 when my peak SP in my rDPS gear is ~5980. So there's something else going on.

[Goatonlb]

I'm 2/2 Imp LT and it was def. a noticable difference in last nights raid. I'd say the avg. tap was 45-4800 @ 3400ish buffed SP w/no procs or DP as affliction. I was getting 5100ish taps during fights with various procs, but I don't have a WoL for the night, so I can't look at exact numbers.

However, I do attribute it to helping break 11k on Rotface (normal), as previously I'd have to tap more than I'd like after the beginning heroism, where last night I didn't.

[Jenerena]

3497 average per tap 2 weeks ago.

this week
4269 per tap average

Well, i'm happy.

[Goatonlb]

Well I'd like a get a definitive answer on the subject either way. Another lock in guild was trying to talk me into Dark Pact last night, and I didn't really have a good answer for him. I still like the reliability of Life Tap regardless of your pet (even if they increased the range to 100 yards/LoS), and I have 0 concern about the health loss in normal modes. Like I previously mentioned, it may be a concern in hardmodes, but WORST case scenario you KNOW big raid dmg is incomming, so you line it up with a Haunt to totally negate the HP loss, or you hold it off a sec/do it early to avoid taking 2 hits and putting yourself in danger.

If the mana returned isn't gamebreakingly different, I'll prolly stick with 2/2 LT.

[Deleted]

Rank 1 Life Tap spam ftw, ~2k mana gained for less health cost than fel armour heals.

[GotDots]

I just tried it in game, the formula for mana returned for life tap is now:

2400 + 0.6 * Spellpower

And the health lost is a static 2000

At 4000 spellpower:
dark pact is 1200+.96*4000=5040 mana
life tap is 2400+0.6*4000= 4800 mana
improved 2/2 life tap is 1.2*(2400+0.6*4000) = 5760 mana

So, with these new live numbers dark pact is actually worse than improved life tap.. and it takes a whopping 7000 spellpower for Dark Pact to pass Improved Life Tap. So, this is totally reachable in cataclysm, except apparently life tap gets another change in Cata so oh well.

Demo lock in full 277 gear and all procs could reach 7k spellpower, ofcourse demo specs dont have dark pact, but just a fun fact.

[Nirual]

You will take less damage, but the mana returned is a bit... odd. Everyone except rDPS Demo will get more if they're in proper gear (see: non-spirit gear). rDPS Demo will be getting a nerf to LT, but will still have the largest taps. That's at the high end though. Pretty much everyone at the in-between levels of gear is getting a nerf.

It's a buff for PvP warlocks aswell since they never had a lot of spirit gear to contend with (apart from VoA drops).

I have 0 concern about the health loss in normal modes. Like I previously mentioned, it may be a concern in hardmodes,

From what I've seen, the health loss is now static and not directly related to the mana gain. As long as your spellpower is high enough, you don't really need to concern yourself with the change.
One thing I'd like to point out though is that DP is only one talent point, and LT is still reasonably effective without the 2 points in the talent if you ever lose sight of your felhunter.

[Goatonlb]

Well those points could only move over to Fel Concentration, and there isn't honestly that much pushback to convince me of it (outside of Stinky, lol) considering it allows me to LT less during a fight, saving me GCD's for DPS.

In time saved alone, if I have to tap 3 times less in a fight because I got more mana back, that's 3 GCDs, which I would have a hard time finding made up for in Fel Concentration.

I know the HP loss is static, I was just saying there are times you DON'T want to take 2k damage. I could list a bunch, but they're all really easy to plan around, so I think the point of DP not making you lose HP is a null argument in Normal ICC.

I already wish I had 3 more talent points, as I enjoy 1/2 Destructive & Grim reach I've already had to sacrifice elsewhere. I also have to keep 2/3 Supression when I've got 15.9% hit from gear, as my raid does NOT have an spriest or a boomkin, and hasn't for months.

Point being I'm just not convinced switching from 2/2 ILT to 2/3 Fel Conc. + finding 1 point somewhere else would be worth it just for Dark Pact. I'd have to lose my range talents to make up for it too.

[Kvn]

Well I'd like a get a definitive answer on the subject either way. Another lock in guild was trying to talk me into Dark Pact last night, and I didn't really have a good answer for him. I still like the reliability of Life Tap regardless of your pet (even if they increased the range to 100 yards/LoS), and I have 0 concern about the health loss in normal modes. Like I previously mentioned, it may be a concern in hardmodes, but WORST case scenario you KNOW big raid dmg is incomming, so you line it up with a Haunt to totally negate the HP loss, or you hold it off a sec/do it early to avoid taking 2 hits and putting yourself in danger.

If the mana returned isn't gamebreakingly different, I'll prolly stick with 2/2 LT.

It's in this post if you read it, I posted it on the front page

Life tap 2/2: 2400+0.6*SP
Dark Pact: 1200+0.96*SP

Someone else did the math at what SP where they converge, I think it was like 3300 something. (Just set the two of them equal to each other, simple algebra) Dark pact passes life tap at higher amounts of spellpower.

[nocturnus]

On live DP indeed scales better than imp LT. Remember that most things written in this thread were based on the most recent PTR. There, imp LT was indeed better.

I'm happy they made DP better, at least I can spec into threat reduction. Was rocking the meters at ~13500 dps last night pre BL on some fights. Too bad lag ALWAYS kicks in and screws it up...