Unholy DW in 3.3.3?

[Attreyu]

DW Unholy was viable before ToT was even out. I'm not sure why people are saying "Unholy DW is garbage without ToT". The main reason Unholy DW went out of style was due to the change with Glyph of Icy Touch. The spec was all about generating as much RP as possible spamming IT/PS and DC. NOW, with the changes for Frost DW and 2hnd Unholy (ToT and new SS), these respective specs have been buffed. While frost now has a 20% passive haste buff which DW Unholy can get in their spec, I don't think that's enough to make it a contender.

Ran a sim using default packages for both DW and 2hnd BiS ICC and Unholy DW came up around 800dps shorter. While that's quite a chunk, if you really enjoy DW Unholy and you don't plan on doing 25man hard modes, use it and enjoy.

[johnnysd]

Here's the thing about DW Unholy. I used this spec into ICC as far as Suarfang and itwas very very competitive. I think it plays better not worse than it sims, because it is such a simple and forgiving spec. There is a lot of margin of error where movement or being slightly out of sync does not have as adverse an affect. Keep in mind a lot of cookie cutter specs are only a few dps points better often using BIS gear, and there are quite a few times where the sims turned out to be wrong and something "clearly" wrong turned out to be OK or even better. Not saying that is the case here, but sometimes "horrible" specs are only a bit behind, and I think for an average skilled player a really simply to play spec like DW Unholy could actually be better in a real game setting.

[Praxis]

The reason DW Unholy is simming higher for your gear is likely because of the lack of two things: Reaping, and 2t10. This shifts your damage the same way that it was in 3.2: Focused on white damage (incl. Necrosis/BCB) and Death Coil. After you get 2t10 and/or pick up Reaping, 2h Unholy should edge out DW because of the increased number of Scourge Strikes (and with 2t10, increased damage from those).
As was said before in this thread, it's not exactly optimal, but it's also not going to put you 3-4k dps behind everyone else, lol. If you're not concerned with min/maxing, then whatever.
Also, something to note for Unholy, since you don't have Threat of Thassarian the speed of your offhand doesn't matter; you'll want to use a slow, high damage MH + highest DPS, any speed OH.

[Nopi]

I remember back in 3.1 when some guys on DK.info came up with a brilliant idea of doing a DW frost spec with two super fast weapon(that is, 1.6 speed and faster) to churn out HBs fast, and as such the 32/34 spec was born (might have been differant number, but its close enough lol). Everyone thought this goofy DW spec was useless, with strange talents tossed around (again, pre ToT and DW was laughable), untill this goofy little spec started pulling insane numbers in Naxx and EoE.

Goes to show that sometimes these underdog specs that people make for fun can actually end up out preforming with the right skills and such. So by all means man, try your spec, figure out its quirks and make it work.

[Vodamn]

If you don't have points in a talent called "Threat of Thassarian" then it will fail hard with 2 weapons. Case closed.

[Attreyu]

Like I said, unless you plan on doing 25man heroic modes, enjoy DW Unholy. It'll do fine for 10man-25man normals.

[muto]

wow..

[blazto]

There's no way unholy dw could be viable because you don't have threat of Thassarian.
Without that all your attacks are gimped, SS with a 1h deals a silly damage (and you use 2 runes for it).
Also you miss 5% (or 25% if you don't have an enha shaman) haste.
So no, the only way to dual wield is frost with an unholy subspec.

Gotta love these guys that developed the DK class. If you are remotely trying to DW as Unholy, SS isn't the nuke you should try. Oblit is the nuke to test it with. Ofc using SS and not having ToT will gimp you. Having a perma ghoul makes up for no ToT and oblits with arp isn't nothing to sneeze at. So to Professor Brince a closed mind as your comment suggests will lead to fail 100% of the time.

[rabbimojo]

Specs get to be "cookie cutter" because they are mathematically superior to the other possible choices. Everyone who has earned their spot in a raid wants to do the best dps they can so they use the research and testing done by the "nice" folks over at EJ or wherever so that they don't have to reinvent the wheel themselves every patch.
And there's nothing wrong with change, it's inevitable. There's a new cookie cutter for every patch and 3.3.3 is the time of 0/17/54.

Just a minor point of contention here.
I would argue that "mathematically superior" is far too coarse-grained a phrase for the actual process.

As is generally well-known, EJ discussions typically focus on a specific type of fight: Patchwerk. The same as most sims. However, in those threads is usually a buzz of discussion about different sets of assumptions, different considerations for the specs in practice rather than in theory.

Because these comments can not be distilled as easily, they don't make it into guides or summaries. So, most people read "xx/yy/zz with these priorities is the highest dps spec*." They ignore the asterisk, whether the asterisk is literal or just additional caveats glued onto the original sentence. That's where cookie-cutter specs really originate. Not a blanketed "mathematically superior", but rather a specific and limited "mathematically superior".

In truth, there are a -lot- of very very viable specs out there, many of which are considerably more forgiving outside of optimal sim-style circumstances than any given spec du jour. DK has versatility in spades, and we should be eternally on guard against oversimplifying what works and what doesn't. Keep those caveats around!

[rabbimojo]

Gotta love these guys that developed the DK class. If you are remotely trying to DW as Unholy, SS isn't the nuke you should try. Oblit is the nuke to test it with. Ofc using SS and not having ToT will gimp you. Having a perma ghoul makes up for no ToT and oblits with arp isn't nothing to sneeze at. So to Professor Brince a closed mind as your comment suggests will lead to fail 100% of the time.

The ghoul doesn't "make up for no ToT". ToT is busy making up for low MH strike damage.

I'm not saying anything about DW unholy's viability, just saying that you seem to be missing the point. The argument of those decrying the DW unholy spec is that 2h unholy is better in every way. So, since both of those specs have the ghoul, the ghoul isn't really important.

It's easy to check whether DW unholy can compete with 2h unholy.
1) Calculate the loss your rotation (strikes, primarily) damage takes
2) Calculate the boost you get from DW's superior AP->white conversion, including the various autoattackey things (and of course the potential for OHing RoRI).
3) Re-evaluate optimal rotations, keeping an eye out particularly for UP-based RP dump styles. Higher autoattack damage means the difference between BP's 15% damage and UP's 15% haste is smaller, easing the requirements for what percent of time must be spent GCD-bound to make UP > BP.
4) Calculate the overall damage of the new spec, compare to old spec

Voila, math'd.

Chances are it's actually pretty close to the 2h unholy, as the haste and OH scaling buffs this patch were very generous.

[blazto]

The ghoul doesn't "make up for no ToT". ToT is busy making up for low MH strike damage.

I'm not saying anything about DW unholy's viability, just saying that you seem to be missing the point. The argument of those decrying the DW unholy spec is that 2h unholy is better in every way. So, since both of those specs have the ghoul, the ghoul isn't really important.

It's easy to check whether DW unholy can compete with 2h unholy.
1) Calculate the loss your rotation (strikes, primarily) damage takes
2) Calculate the boost you get from DW's superior AP->white conversion, including the various autoattackey things (and of course the potential for OHing RoRI).
3) Re-evaluate optimal rotations, keeping an eye out particularly for UP-based RP dump styles. Higher autoattack damage means the difference between BP's 15% damage and UP's 15% haste is smaller, easing the requirements for what percent of time must be spent GCD-bound to make UP > BP.
4) Calculate the overall damage of the new spec, compare to old spec

Voila, math'd.

Chances are it's actually pretty close to the 2h unholy, as the haste and OH scaling buffs this patch were very generous.

Sorry but I think you have you have it wrong! I wasn't comparing DW to 2hers. So apparently you missed the point. I was comparing ToT damage and ghoul damage. Then you come with an idiotic statement "The ghoul doesn't "make up for no ToT". ToT is busy making up for low MH strike damage." Ok show the math that proves ToT and a ghouls damage aren't similar. ToT provides a 30% chance to also deal damage with the offhand and your ghoul can attack PRACTICALLY 100% of the time.

"Re-evaluate optimal rotations, keeping an eye out particularly for UP-based RP dump styles. Higher autoattack damage means the difference between BP's 15% damage and UP's 15% haste is smaller, easing the requirements for what percent of time must be spent GCD-bound to make UP > BP." So your suggesting Unholy Pres over Blood Pres?

In your quest to sound intelligent you have stated the obvious which, 4) Calculate the overall damage of the new spec, compare to old spec,
is apparently going to be done and you also say to try to make UP>BP. Your 4 steps aren't entirely wrong but very flawed.