The new Subtlety !

[bellja]

Well, to make this thread more productive, what spec would you use in PVE 5 mans, if any?

[Asjes]

lol cheat death is awful atm, most pvp sub rogues wouldn't even pick it up

In tbc anything that would kill the rogue would be 100% reduced plus some buff that reduces next dmg or smth, warriors were affraid to execute :>

[Gxz]

lol cheat death is awful atm, most pvp sub rogues wouldn't even pick it up

Ugh... If you actually looked at my post I bolded "Always have" meaning that in BC it was OP. Kthx.

[Voij]

Well, to make this thread more productive, what spec would you use in PVE 5 mans, if any?

Sub or Combat, Sub is more fun, though.

[Snapples]

I do await the day that sub becomes viable and fun once again!

[Voij]

I do await the day that sub becomes viable and fun once again!

Always was fun, is also viable right now. Just not quite worth it in terms of raiding. [Harder then other two specs both in playing it and in setting the group up, but doesn't net more dps on most fights/where it counts.]

[Nudle]

Played a bit of sub today (20/0/51). It`s just balls. I mean there`s actually no difference, besides the backstab/ ambush buff, and the hemo which does kinda shit dmg on plate. And that with ilvl 277 daggers. Fun like top HKs in a bgs, but bgs don't really matter.

[Nero Duskwind]

We had a rogue in our 25 ICC Heroic last night Sub, to increase the damage output of others via tricks spam, his damage was not as high as our mutilate rogue but topped our combat rogues damage (probably a gear difference though). But damage was not entirely terrible, plus shadowstep kick was nice for those mages on VDW :P

You have a really bad Combat Rogue then.

PvE wise, quoted from EJ:

You're quoting one exceptional player who was able to pull it off and assume that this is concrete evidence that the spec is every bit as competitive as Combat or Mutilate in the hands of an average player. The spec is only as good as the player who utilizes it.

lol cheat death is awful atm, most pvp sub rogues wouldn't even pick it up

Cheat Death was a lot better prior to Blizzard making its effectiveness contingent on your resilience rating.

In tbc anything that would kill the rogue would be 100% reduced plus some buff that reduces next dmg or smth, warriors were affraid to execute :>

90% reduction and, due to coding bugs, an additional 90% reduction that resulted in 99% total mitigation to be exact.

[ModZs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NugG3sXO2tk Did I answer the question?

BGs are definitely not the "Proving Grounds" for any spec for any class.

If you really want to test it go into the arena as subtlety. 1900+MMR

[dindon3003]

Sooo

I droped my raid spec for a second pvp spec since i dont even do heroic on my rogue anymore. I tried a regular sub spec for these new random BGs and the result is not bad at all.

First thing to consider : I think sub is alot more fun then other spec... Why? First of all, trying to land back stab to slow down enemy and ambush when ur target is not stun is alot harder then i remembered. Positioning as sub is alot more important then mut/prep that is basicaly a mut / envenom spam fest....

Second : The burst is insane!!! I was in WG while waiting for my 6min Q and i was having fun killing people at the vendor... ambush shadow dance, ambush ambush dead... Anything, anyone except some quick on the bubble pally lol....

Third : Burst is insane!!!! BUT long term damage is not.. really not great... Sub = no energy... If u dont land ur killing blow on ur burst well u better vanish or run away cause u wont do anything... no poison to stack for an envenom... nothing. I tried some low level arena and its pretty decent, u just need to reset the fight alot with sprint or gouge to get some energy back... then boom! burst again. The real trick is actually to wait for full energy before u open up... It was smart as mut, its smarter as sub, with 130 energy with spec gear and glyph, u can land alot of instant before ur out... but when ur out.. ur out...

Fourth : The real issue is plate... Its really really hard to kill plate, like really really really hard... I did not find any special tricks to kill arms warrior or holy pally... In 2s we got crushed a couple of time... And i still need to figure a way out of this... I think i might get that improve rupture since i dont really need evis to destroy coth anyway...

So basicaly, i think sub is back in the game and many rogues will find specing in it attractive. It has many ++ and that others spec dont have and i think skilled rogue will succed in exploiting them

[Lade]

I tryed a sub spec in our ICC25 and the results are interesting..
The spec was 00/19/52 with backstab as the combo builder.
really hard to use but in the hand of a good player who know whats going on during the fight,which ability you must use right after ShS and if you are in a fight where its more focused on movement like marrowgar and even deathwhisper.

did 10090 dps on festergut and i was 5th on the meter,only 500 dps lower than everybody else but there are things to note with that:

-i have the talent to reduce the aoe damage by 30% (less healing needed in a fight).
-ToTT every 20 secondes on the combat rogues which pushed him at 10500-10600 dps.

this spec is hard but fun to use and can give a slight more help for specific fights.

plz try it once and this is my build:http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...20153105031251

[Mefistophelis]

To Lade : please link your armory just to see your gear and your glyphs . need to check it out myself !

[Zondana]

How can sub ever be good for PvP?

Considering the lagg issues that buggs all of WoW currently getting "behind" the target often involves standing in front of a stunned target with your back towards him.... (and i play at 20 - 50 MS)

I tried out the Sub spec yesterday and found my self critting a unbuffed priest with a Shadowstep > Ambus (useing Heartpirce) for 1500.... -_- after that i KS'ed him and Shadowdanced... just to find myself running around him in circles trying to Ambush him again but apparently no matter where i was standing or faceing, i could never be behind him. Keep in mind that this was a target standing still... How would this feel in an Arena where the target is actually trying to escape... I used to play sub back in TBC and kept 1900 Rating, however now i don't even want to look at the spec anymore...

How is it possible for our Spike damage skill to critt for 1500 on an unbuffed priest?...

[Baabinator]

Sooo

I droped my raid spec for a second pvp spec since i dont even do heroic on my rogue anymore. I tried a regular sub spec for these new random BGs and the result is not bad at all.

First thing to consider : I think sub is alot more fun then other spec... Why? First of all, trying to land back stab to slow down enemy and ambush when ur target is not stun is alot harder then i remembered. Positioning as sub is alot more important then mut/prep that is basicaly a mut / envenom spam fest....

Second : The burst is insane!!! I was in WG while waiting for my 6min Q and i was having fun killing people at the vendor... ambush shadow dance, ambush ambush dead... Anything, anyone except some quick on the bubble pally lol....

Third : Burst is insane!!!! BUT long term damage is not.. really not great... Sub = no energy... If u dont land ur killing blow on ur burst well u better vanish or run away cause u wont do anything... no poison to stack for an envenom... nothing. I tried some low level arena and its pretty decent, u just need to reset the fight alot with sprint or gouge to get some energy back... then boom! burst again. The real trick is actually to wait for full energy before u open up... It was smart as mut, its smarter as sub, with 130 energy with spec gear and glyph, u can land alot of instant before ur out... but when ur out.. ur out...

Fourth : The real issue is plate... Its really really hard to kill plate, like really really really hard... I did not find any special tricks to kill arms warrior or holy pally... In 2s we got crushed a couple of time... And i still need to figure a way out of this... I think i might get that improve rupture since i dont really need evis to destroy coth anyway...

So basicaly, i think sub is back in the game and many rogues will find specing in it attractive. It has many ++ and that others spec dont have and i think skilled rogue will succed in exploiting them

Just a tip, as subtlety you'll want to control your enemy as much as possible, so don't pick up Deadly Poison and use Gouge more often.

I even dare to say that you should pick up Improved Gouge, and simply restealth every time you Gouge.

Might not be perfect, but i suggest a spec close to this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...0-_v,e8q,11685

[Nakriel]

I have done a little testing of Subtlety PvE using Hemorrhage as a builder with 9/10/52 spec, it is below Combat and Mutilate still but it is very fun and challenging to play. Haven't tried any Backstab variants yet.

[Wanky]

I went from the Mutilate cookie cutter build to Subtlety as soon as this patch hit. 17/0/54. I don't care if it's worse than Mutilate for PvP in arenas, or if it has issues with plate; it's still fun as hell. And honestly I'm not too concerned about being a jam masta pro with the expansion looming. To me, it's just about having fun. And this build = funfunfun.

[Wanky]

Just a tip, as subtlety you'll want to control your enemy as much as possible, so don't pick up Deadly Poison and use Gouge more often.

I even dare to say that you should pick up Improved Gouge, and simply restealth every time you Gouge.

Might not be perfect, but i suggest a spec close to this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...0-_v,e8q,11685

No HAT and no Deadliness = bad.

[Mefistophelis]

I just tried it out. it's ok ! having fun as much as possible . and extra survivability !

[Lade]

here is my armory with the gear,talent and glyphes:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-t...=Lade&gn=Havoc
in my build i took hemo too for farming/daily purposes but its better if you out that point in setup or somewhere else with survivality.

was really helpfull yesterday on sindragosa! (3rd horde guild working on LK25 on doomhammer)and the heavy aoe stuff from LK are getting blocked with veiled shadow.

[Rayzan]

Coming from a long time Sub lover (lvl'd 1-80 sub and kept it as pvp spec for a few months) I had to pick this up. Even had my spec set up two days in advance. But I gotta say, it just isn't cutting it still in pvp. I don't know about pve because I haven't had the balls to make a pve sub spec but after a few days of playing as sub and getting over the nostalgic feeling of Sub being somewhat viable again, I found myself spec'ing back to mut/prep.

It's really good against mail, leather, and cloth with little to no resil but plate and anything with a good amount of resil even my ambushes were only hitting for a few thousand. Which 3000*5 ambushes = only half hp of the average pvp'er. After that it was like hitting my target with those foam spagetti tubes you use in pools lol. Even if I did get a stealth of and cheap shot my target again, backstabs were critting for like 2k. It just isn't enough.

IMO the plate classes come down to how much dmg a rogue can put out and avoid. And that's what sub lacks still and mut os great with. Even though sub was decent against casters mut can usually either overpower them or out maneuver easily. Mut just has too many advantages over Sub still that it's irresistable.

I can predict a lot of the "omg sub is great again I'm never spec'ing anything else again" rogues will be going back to mut after they realize sub might be fun but it loses it's value quickly.

Just my two cents. Take it or leave it.