Carrion Birds

[Deleted]

I have just tested out a carrion bird in a raid and i would say its really good and wonder why there is like no hunters using one. It does great dps and has a nice AP reduction skill.

Demoralizing Screech

Blasts a single enemy for 84 to 129 damage and lowers the melee attack power of all enemies in melee range by 574. Effect lasts 10 sec.

The ap reduction is equal to a fully talented warrior shout or druid roar which none of them usally dont spend points in. Pallys vindication is the only thing that can compare and even so im not sure if they stack or not since both debuffs can be on the same target at the same time.

So why are they so unattractive when they can bring a nice debuff?

[Darxis]

Simple answer: People are too busy tugging their genitals while looking at their Recount to care whether they are helping the raid in the best way or not.

Also, 574 attack power is pretty negligible.

[TwojaStara]

Also, 574 attack power is pretty negligible.

Isn't it like 50-70% of boss level target's total AP? I might be totally wrong, but I simply can't remember...

[mattepatte]

Simple answer: People are too busy tugging their genitals while looking at their Recount to care whether they are helping the raid in the best way or not.

Also, 574 attack power is pretty negligible.

It scales differently for bosses and having a debuff up like this lowers the damage considerably.

[Kalti]

Simple answer: People are too busy tugging their genitals while looking at their Recount to care whether they are helping the raid in the best way or not.

Also, 574 attack power is pretty negligible.

Guess it depends on your definition of "helping the raid". Since tanks rarely die to burst damage because Blizzard has gone out of their way to make incoming damage to tanks constant and manageable, these reduction skills are inconsequential and obviously as a dps class you would be best "helping the raid" by dpsing your tits off.

The only useful things we can bring as hunters are 10% AP, replenishment and 3% damage, all of which are usually covered by other clases.

[Dekere]

574 ap... 41 dps. depending on boss swing speed, that's 61.5 (at 1.5 sec swing speed) to 123 (at 3.0 speed) damage -before armor- per hit. pretty negligible difference. sure it would add up over the course of a fight, but is still very unlikely to impact the fact that your tank is either alive or dead, which is what really matters.

it's a more noticeable contribution on aoe events, lots of smaller hits getting that reduction would help... but trash doesnt matter really, it's the bosses that are the challenging and important battles, and you'd be better off with a wolf, doing more damage and making the boss die faster.

[Deleted]

Oh well it might not be that usefull but still helps the raid a bit.

Wolves might give me more dps but the dps increase is very slim so i will stick with the bird (im so sick of seeing wolves everywhere)

I checked recount also and found that the screech critted as high as 3k at some point so its nice

[Aoundril]

Probably more useful in 5 or 10-mans where there might not be anybody else to provide the debuff just like the wasp's armor reduction is a good addition to the raid if there are no faerie fires around.

And I guess if the AP reduction from the carrion bird is neglible then so is the AP buff of the wolf because if I remember correctly that one is smaller than the carrion bird debuff.

[Eis]

Guess it depends on your definition of "helping the raid". Since tanks rarely die to burst damage because Blizzard has gone out of their way to make incoming damage to tanks constant and manageable..

Hard mode Sindragosa says HI!

If a buff or debuff isn't brought by someone else in the raid, it's definitely going to be useful. It may not be the greatest difference in the world, but useful is useful.

[Muffinator]

tanks demo shout dont they? that covers the debuff. same with vindication if pallies spec it

[Ruud]

I'm not up to speed on how it is these days, but I remember we brought one to Brutallus for the debuff, and it was good. I guess after 3.0 the debuff is available from more sources.

The sound drove everyone nuts though ;D Maybe that's another reason.

[Kalti]

Hard mode Sindragosa says HI!

If a buff or debuff isn't brought by someone else in the raid, it's definitely going to be useful. It may not be the greatest difference in the world, but useful is useful.

It can be brought by three tanking classes and if it is needed for a fight, then the tanks should bring it.

I raid lead and would always expect hunters to be bringing the best dps they can for progression content (read: wolf pet) as I would expect tanks to have what they need to spec / use for the raid to succeed. As I said before, the only "useful" things I would rely on hunters for in a raid is 10% AP, Replenishment or 3% damage.

[Aoundril]

It can be brought by three tanking classes and if it is needed for a fight, then the tanks should bring it.

I raid lead and would always expect hunters to be bringing the best dps they can for progression content (read: wolf pet) as I would expect tanks to have what they need to spec / use for the raid to succeed. As I said before, the only "useful" things I would rely on hunters for in a raid is 10% AP, Replenishment or 3% damage.

You seem to assume that at least one of the tanks is one of the classes that can bring the AP debuff. That, however, will not always be the case. Sure it's likely but it's not a given (even in progression guilds who generally keep a balanced roster bad luck with attendance can put you in tricky spots). In a tenman the riskthat both tanks are of the class that cannot bring it is even greater. In case of such events it would seem to me that having a carrion bird to switch in would be a good idea. Such pet's give the hunter the ability to compensate for some shortcomings in raid setup.

[zaronn]

As small as the effect on boss damage is, I would say that you would save the tank from more damage by using a wolf and ending the fight sooner, than using a bird and having him take less damage per swing... granted this is an estimate; mostly because the numbers are both going to be so small and subjective.

inb4 flames... I realize you arent gaining a huge amount of damage from the wolf buff (300ap, 50% uptime). my point is you are not reducing much damage either.

[Viperfang]

While the model for hunter pet abilities is certainly interesting and really could be taken advantage of, in lieu of how common that debuff is, a carrion bird is still a very poor choice.

Wasps, even Worms rate higher on my *SCALE OF USEFULNESS*, and those two aren't exactly chart toppers.

While we *can* bring some interesting debuffs to cover holes in the buff/debuff matrix, it's rarely ever a benefit and is almost always a detriment to the raid as a whole for trying to cover something that isn't really needed. You don't see many hunters wanting to bring worms in, even when there's a pally / druid tank and no warriors for sunders. When was the last time you saw a wasp in a raid?

If you *really* want to help your tanks from dying, and help your raid out at the cost of your own dps, look at getting a tallstrider. Making the boss miss 1 attack every 40 sec is probably a far greater reduction in damage than the AP debuff (this differs from boss to boss, I imagine)

[Lysah]

While the model for hunter pet abilities is certainly interesting and really could be taken advantage of, in lieu of how common that debuff is, a carrion bird is still a very poor choice.

Wasps, even Worms rate higher on my *SCALE OF USEFULNESS*, and those two aren't exactly chart toppers.

While we *can* bring some interesting debuffs to cover holes in the buff/debuff matrix, it's rarely ever a benefit and is almost always a detriment to the raid as a whole for trying to cover something that isn't really needed. You don't see many hunters wanting to bring worms in, even when there's a pally / druid tank and no warriors for sunders. When was the last time you saw a wasp in a raid?

If you *really* want to help your tanks from dying, and help your raid out at the cost of your own dps, look at getting a tallstrider. Making the boss miss 1 attack every 40 sec is probably a far greater reduction in damage than the AP debuff (this differs from boss to boss, I imagine)

Honestly, the reason hunters won't bring a worm is because a tenacity pet can barely sustain more than 0 DPS in a raid. You could easily lose 500-600 DPS switching from wolf to worm, even if you gain sunders. It's much easier for other classes (fury/arms warriors/rogues at worse) to keep up sunder.

[Nirual]

I'd say it's a matter of raid setup. If the tanks are struggling and noone can provide an ap debuff (talented or not), sacrificing some dps by bringing your bird along is at least worth a try.

Worms could be a similiar case but probably only if you had more melee dps and hunters than a balanced raid should and somehow are still missing someone for sunders.

[Daginni]

Personally, I think the raid should bring in 15 Hunters with Pink Tallstriders and have them rotate:

Dust Cloud
40 sec cooldown
Your tallstrider kicks up an obscuring cloud of dust, causing all enemies within 10 yards to miss their next attack. Lasts for 8 sec.

Who needs dodge or a AP debuff when you got skill with Tallstriders? It is also a Ferocity pet so the DPS loss is minor. You can probably bring in 24 Hunters because you don't need healers anymore. Then Blizzard is going to go "OH NO!" because Hunters are the new PvE FOTM because demand for them went up and they will nurf Tallstriders into the cunning tree with a 2 week cooldown on Dust Cloud because of clever use of game mechanics. ;D

I would still use my Pink Tallstrider, screw your wolf.

[AvA-LaND]

Isn't this already taken care of by Demo shout / Vindication. Besides birds are annoying as all hell when they start using their screech ability.

IN B4 LOL TURN OFF GAMESOUNDS!