Shadow's Edge or Glorenzelg MH, for fury?

[Talho]

I've had Shadow's Edge MHhttp://www.wowhead.com/?item=49888, Cryptmaker OH, for a while, and now have Glorenzelg, High-Blade of the Silver Hand from 25 LK http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50070,

EDIT: Hardcapped 100% with food ArP, ...gems/gear are to get hit/exp capped, then ARP capped (them after that STR gems) weapon skills are maxed
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...krond&cn=Talho


Glorenzelg is only 3.6 speed, compared to SE 3.7 speed, but I figured with a 311 dps, 271 weapon, that it should probably go in my MH, so I plugged Glorenzelg, Cryptmaker, SE, into Landsoul's warrior spreadsheet, and tried all the gear combinations, to end up with a 150dps increase (from 10800 to 10960 basically) with Glorenzelg MH, Cryptmaker OH (with sword, mace combo, my human racial of expertise can be used too)

However, when I actually raided yesterday, it seemed that my attacks were hitting like spaghetti, and I noticed my attacks simply were not hitting/critting for as much as usual

I think its due to the weapon speed discrepancy? 3.6 Glorenzelg vs 3.7 SE?

Glorenzelg has 1344 topend weapon damage, SE has 1309 topend, but when attack power adds some dps, for example enough AP to add 1000 dps:

1000 X 3.6 = adds 3600 topend Glorenzelg 1000 X 3.7 = adds 3700 topend SE

So am I really hitting for less when using Glorenzelg, and full Raid buffs?

Landsoul's spreadsheet shows using Glorenzelg in MH gives me higher net dps though, does the spreadsheet not factor in weapon speed? (I'm almost positive it does though)

So, in short does anyone have an idea on whether...I should be using Glorenzelg in MH, cryptmaker in OH?, or SE in MH, cryptmaker in OH like I have been doing?

[Shelly]

What's your weapon skill with each weapon type?

What's your gemming like?

What's your ArP level?

Where's your armory link?

[smartAXE]

your top end might hit for "less" but it hits faster
i would use the sword mh if i was capped on all my needed stats and wasn't flooded with a retarded amount of expt

[Deleted]

Sword, mainhand, no question.

For fury it's always highest DPS in mainhand as speed barely matters, there's a few exceptions but those are far and few between.

[Kysimir]

"slow in MH" came around back when WW only hit MH. This was done so that Heroic Strike and WW would have the highest top-end possible. In WOTLK, WW hits with both weapons, however Slam only hits MH. So "Slow in MH" is still utilized so that Heroic Strike and Slam have the highest top-end possible.

However, "slow in MH" is a bit of a misnomer. It's not actually weapon speed that we're looking at, but top-end. Speed isn't the issue, it's the top-end damage. If a 3.4 weapon had 1450 top-end, we would most likely put that in our main-hand. It's the top-end that we look at, we just phrase it "slow in MH" to make it easier to recite and remember.

So, in this case, the sword has the higher top-end. So, utilize it in your MH and SE in your offhand.

This is, of course, ignoring stats completely. There are cases where you do not have the gear to support a weapon itemized like the sword, in which case you lose DPS (despite hitting harder) by using a higher top-end weapon. I honestly don't feel like looking at your armory to determine if you fall into this category. However, if you can maintain all the caps with 251+ gear, use the Sword and SE.

[RPZip]

"slow in MH" came around back when WW only hit MH. This was done so that Heroic Strike and WW would have the highest top-end possible. In WOTLK, WW hits with both weapons, however Slam only hits MH. So "Slow in MH" is still utilized so that Heroic Strike and Slam have the highest top-end possible.

However, "slow in MH" is a bit of a misnomer. It's not actually weapon speed that we're looking at, but top-end. Speed isn't the issue, it's the top-end damage. If a 3.4 weapon had 1450 top-end, we would most likely put that in our main-hand. It's the top-end that we look at, we just phrase it "slow in MH" to make it easier to recite and remember.

This is wrong in so many ways I'm not even sure where to begin.

Barring the slight uptick in TPS, slow vs. fast in the MH never mattered for Heroic Strikes. Then and now, the difference in Rage consumption was minimal as the bonus Rage cost of HS was relatively small compared to the much larger amount of Rage you lost by not letting the white attack go through; with a slower weapon you hit it less, and with a faster weapon you hit it more, but the overall Rage loss from both was largely similar and the minor damage boost with more Heroic Strikes made up the difference.

Top-end has never been a DPS stat for anyone. Never. Not in the entire history of the game has top-end ever been a DPS stat. Average damage has been, especially pre-Normalization of instant attacks, but the only reason people ever used top-end was because they were lazy. The variance in damage ranges is typically not standardized; two weapons with the same average damage may have different top-end (and bottom-end) damage values, but they're almost entirely irrelevant. What matters is the average damage of the weapon, which you can arrive at by averaging out the top-end and bottom-end or by just multiplying weapon DPS by weapon speed.

Pre-WotLK the only reason you really cared about slow vs. fast was the difference it made in Whirlwind damage, which was a factor but a relatively minor one for single-target DPS; the difference between a slow and a fast weapon was typically ~100 damage per Whirlwind, which was not terribly significant when you hit it every 9 seconds. In WotLK it's gained some cachet, as Slam is still not normalized and Deep Wounds isn't either, but it's still a relatively minor aspect relative to weapon DPS when you're figuring out which one to stick in your MH.

[Griefel]

What does landsoul's spreadsheet say? ...

[Talho]

This is why I'm asking: Sword has 895-1344 and Axe has 872-1309 base from only weapon alone

When I equip Sword and using all other gear, my character info damage range: 2384-2813 3.51speed

When I equip Axe and with other gear, my character info damage range: 2407-2825 3.6speed

(With more raid buffs and Attack Power, the difference between sword vs axe damage range becomes more prevalent, in my character page damage range becomes larger and larger, such as damage ranges of when equipped with sword 3000-4000, and when equipped with axe 3100-4200)

*Note in an other Elitistjerks topic (about H bryntoll vs SE) i saw something about this, which is why i ask:

Person A: "im just curious as to why the dmg range would drop so much when the top end of heroic bryntoll is higher. neither are gemmed with anything that would change the top end."

Person B: "You are forgetting how attack power increases weapon dps. Say you have enough attack power to give you an extra 500 dps to your weapons. The 3.4 speed weapon will gain 3.4 x 500 = 1700 top end, while a 3.7 speed weapon gains 3.7 x 500 = 1850 top end."

Person C: "As Pilk said, Attack Power increases DPS. DPS = Damage per Second, so it's a unit of measurement. That's why we want slow weapon, our attack power will further increase the top-end damage range and give us bigger hits/crits."

Is what they said at Elitistjerks not true? It really does seem that slower weapon scale with AP better to increase our damage range? (btw in my first post I already said Landsoul's spreadsheet shows a 150 dps increase of the sword over the axe but that includes human racial, lots of gem switching etc, 100% passive hard arp cap with food, hit/exp capped in both setups of course)

[Kysimir]

This is wrong in so many ways I'm not even sure where to begin.

Barring the slight uptick in TPS, slow vs. fast in the MH never mattered for Heroic Strikes. Then and now, the difference in Rage consumption was minimal as the bonus Rage cost of HS was relatively small compared to the much larger amount of Rage you lost by not letting the white attack go through; with a slower weapon you hit it less, and with a faster weapon you hit it more, but the overall Rage loss from both was largely similar and the minor damage boost with more Heroic Strikes made up the difference.

Top-end has never been a DPS stat for anyone. Never. Not in the entire history of the game has top-end ever been a DPS stat. Average damage has been, especially pre-Normalization of instant attacks, but the only reason people ever used top-end was because they were lazy. The variance in damage ranges is typically not standardized; two weapons with the same average damage may have different top-end (and bottom-end) damage values, but they're almost entirely irrelevant. What matters is the average damage of the weapon, which you can arrive at by averaging out the top-end and bottom-end or by just multiplying weapon DPS by weapon speed.

Pre-WotLK the only reason you really cared about slow vs. fast was the difference it made in Whirlwind damage, which was a factor but a relatively minor one for single-target DPS; the difference between a slow and a fast weapon was typically ~100 damage per Whirlwind, which was not terribly significant when you hit it every 9 seconds. In WotLK it's gained some cachet, as Slam is still not normalized and Deep Wounds isn't either, but it's still a relatively minor aspect relative to weapon DPS when you're figuring out which one to stick in your MH.

Really now?

I guess the yellow abilities that all do "weapon damage"... like

• Slam
  Mortal Strike

which are affected by top end, and not weapon speed, wouldn't make a higher top-end more beneficial. Right? Yes, I know fury doesn't use mortal strike, but you brought it in when you used the words "not a dps stat for anyone."

The pure damage effect from HS is roughly equivalent with a 3.4 and a 3.6 due to more HS vs higher hitting HS, but even if it comes out exactly even, you're still neglecting slam.

[RPZip]

Really now?

I guess the yellow abilities that all do "weapon damage"... like

Slam
Mortal Strike


which are affected by top end, and not weapon speed, wouldn't make a higher top-end more beneficial. Right? Yes, I know fury doesn't use mortal strike, but you brought it in when you used the words "not a dps stat for anyone."

Slam still isn't normalized; it's effected directly by weapon speed (or more accurately, it gets a bonus that scales with WEP_SPEED * ATK_POWER rather than NORMALIZED_WEP_SPEED * ATK_POWER). Of course, that was touched on in my post as well if you'd actually... you know, read it.

Here, let me break it down for you; this might be instructive.

Warrior abilities that scale directly with weapon speed (non-normalized):

• Slam
  Deep Wounds

Warrior abilities that scale with average damage (normalized):

• Mortal Strike
  Whirlwind
  Overpower

Warrior abilities where the weapon is largely irrelevant:

• Execute
  Bloodthirst

Warrior abilities where top-end is an important stat:

There aren't any. Top-end damage is a misnomer that's been inaccurate since Vanilla, even before Weapon Normalization came into play and one that's persisted since then. Top-end damage does not matter for anything outside of your maximum hit; the only relevance it has is a fairly loose relation to average weapon damage, and even then it's a fairly minor contribution to your damage.

[Shelly]

Wow, lot of anger in here.

OK, regarding weapon speed and MH and all that.

There was a rule of thumb created that you always put your slowest weapon in your main hand. This is because a slower weapon typically has a higher damage range so your attacks will hit harder.

In other words, a confusing rule was made by shitty semantics.

Rather it should be said that you place the weapon with your highest damage range in your main hand, regardless of the speed. This is why you get things like putting the http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37653 in your MH and http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41257 in your OH. Even though the destroyer is all sparkly and purple compared to the blue.

Now to the OP.

Did you actually run a recount from week to week or save logs from one fight to the next? Are you absolutely certain that your average damage has decreased? Do you have recounts where you have seen an actual drop? Do you feel that the drop is less powerful individual hits (which is what it sounds like you think) or do you think of it as an overall loss?

And as just a food for thought thing, I've heard of some people having trouble with rage generation with two weapons of the same speed. Is it possible that your management has been thrown off?

[Deleted]

I have to agree with the valiant champion of logic and reasoning, altho he's being abit of an ass!

You put whatever weapon with the highest DPS in your mainhand, 9/10 times. The only times this doesn't apply is if the DPS diffrence is minor as hell, and there's a decent speed diffrence.

[Rhai]

First of all, AP increases DPS so yes, it's very logical for Shadow's Edge to have slightly more dmg with your gear. The dps with the sword will always be higher.

The only abilities that will be affected positively by using SE instead of the LK sword are non-normalised abilities. That, for you, is Slam, and nothing more.

By knowing that, you either (1) calculate the average dps gain by the change of interval between your heroic strikes, considering that you burn rage slightly faster (not that it really matters anymore - with current gear and the amount of raiddmg in fights it's spam spam spam... and when very rarely... oorage? muhahah - bloodrage, keep going) (2) calculate the difference in slam damage (3) calculate the damage difference in your WW's, BT's (4) calculate how many of those (HSs, BTs, WWs, MH / OH hits, Slams) will go off in a time of,say, 100hours, for both MHs and find your DPS considering the fact that the damage is differentiated by the fact that you're hitting something that has a certain amount of armor, of which some you will ignore, the crit suppression, the buffs and debuffs, and the list goes on and on and on, or! run Landsoul's spreadsheet, which simulates you raidbuffed hitting a lvl83 raid-debuffed boss-flagged mob for infinite time, and get the result without breaking a sweat, and more accurately, since it will definitely calculate more stuff than you or I can possibly think of without researching for several hours.

Which you did - and it says it's a 160 dps increase.

You gain +3 expertise that you wouldn't have on your MH with Shadow's Edge, expertise that you would have to get to cap your yellows even though your offhand would be capped. To me, well, it seems like a very smooth upgrade.

Now, if your heroic strikes and slams hit for slightly less damage than before, remember - it's DPS that matters, and not damage, and those are only 2 abilities. (heroic strike dps will be higher nonetheless)

If you thought you hit like spaghetti, that's either because you were prejudiced about the swap, because you didn't bother regemming before you swapped in the sword, because you didn't realise your sword weapon skill was actually lower than 400, or (most probably) because you just had a bad hair day.

I think this pretty much sums it up.

Oh, and, to the side argument, unless the probability of getting a number closer to the top-end is much higher than the probability of getting a number closer to low-end - which isn't, it's the same for all "pieces" of the same length on the spectrum ranging from low-end to high-end dmg (Jeez, sorry for the terrible greek-to-english math translation), then the average is always in the middle, and the high end has nothing to do with it.

Imagine 2 weapons with the same DPS, say 500, both 2.0 speed (average weapon damage is 1000), yet weapon no1 hits for 750 - 1250, while weapon no2 hits for 200 - 1800.
Which one would you take? Answer is.. It doesn't matter, it's the same in the long run. But, well, I'd take no1, rng hates me.

[Matsujinn]

I've been meaning to post in this thread for a couple days but my IE crashed while I was typing a reply and I haven't had much time to retype it.

There is a some bad information here and some good information, let me clear some things up.

First of all, forget about top end damage being important. It's nice if you like to see big numbers, but in the big picture it doesn't mean anything other than that the speed of your weapon is likely high which is what's important.

The A, B, C guys from Elitist Jerks are right in a way, the problem is that they aren't calculating the bottom end as well and averaging it out to find average weapon damage. Obviously, it's better to have a slower weapon, but a faster one isn't horribly bad unless it's super fast.

Damage range of the sword is: 895-1344 Speed: 3.6
Damage range of the axe is: 872-1309 Speed: 3.7

In the example you used where the sword had 3000 min dmg you would need enough AP to increase DPS by 625. The 6% bonus from 2h Spec increases damage before the 10% penalty from TG is applied. This means you would need 8750 ap fully raid buffed to increase DPS by 625. This is possible with mostly/all ICC 25 gear. I'm rounding a small bit here but I'll get to the math.

Sword
Min 625*3.6 = 2250 + 895 = 3145 * 1.06 = 3334 * .9 = 3000
Max 625*3.6 = 2250 + 1344 = 3594 * 1.06 = 3810 * .9 = 3423
Damage range = 3000-3423
Average damage = 3212

Axe
Min 625*3.7 = 2313 + 872 = 3185 * 1.06 = 3376 * .9 = 3038
Max 625*3.7 = 2313 + 1309 = 3622 * 1.06 = 3839 * .9 = 3455
Damage range = 3038-3455
Average damage = 3247

This proves the point that your average weapon damage will be slightly higher with a slower weapon, even if it is a few item levels lower, though not as drastically as you make it look. Moving along from that point, just to show that a faster weapon is not bad for everything: Over 37 seconds the axe will hit 10 times and the sword will hit 10.2777777 times.

Sword
3212*10.27 = 33012
Axe
3247*10 = 32470

The sword will do more damage over the same period of time regardless of weapon speed, on white swings and normalized damage. Your average damage for non-normalized attacks would be 35 damage lower with the sword.

For normalized attacks your damage would be:

Sword
Min 625*3.3 = 2063 + 895 = 2958 * 1.06 = 3135 * .9 = 2822
Max 625*3.3 = 2063 + 1344 = 3407 * 1.06 = 3611 * .9 = 3250
Damage range = 2822-3250
Average damage = 3036

Axe
Min 625*3.3 = 2063 + 872 = 2935 * 1.06 = 3111 * .9 = 2800
Max 625*3.3 = 2063 + 1309 = 3372 * 1.06 = 3574 * .9 = 3217
Damage range = 2800-3217
Average damage = 3009

The sword does about 27 damage more on normalized attacks.

There are still several factors that aren't accounted for. Keep in mind that using the sword means that you will get more stats, need less exp as human, you will get more slam procs, and more heroic strikes in over the course of the fight because of the lower weapon speed.

Non-normalized attacks/damage:
Heroic Strike/Cleave
Slam
Deep Wounds
White hits

Normalized attacks:
Mortal Strike
Overpower
Whirlwind

Other attacks like Bloodthirst and Execute don't have anything to do with the damage/speed of your weapon.

I'm not even beginning to brush on the math involved in Landsoul's spreadsheet. I would trust what the spreadsheet says. Maybe you were missing some buffs/debuffs or were just having a bad day. It happens. The sword is better in the MH.